The New Sales Manager - Where to start, what to do, and when!

In this episode of the Luxury of Choice podcast, Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, and Christian Walter discuss the essential steps for new sales managers to take when starting their roles. They emphasize the importance of getting to know team members, understanding business metrics, and taking decisive action while balancing observation and decision-making. The conversation also highlights the significance of setting clear expectations and goals for the team to foster a productive work environment. Also discussed are the key behaviours and skills that are required for effective sales management including  active listening, delegation, coaching, and the role of feedback in fostering team success. 

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche Jayne Green and Debbie Airey are Sales Trainers from george james ltd. You can email the show at: Podcast@georgejames-training.com

The trainers on LinkedIn:

Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/
Debbie Airey https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-airey-43026110/

george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Chapters

• 0:12 Introduction
• 3:07 Starting as a Sales Manager: First Steps
• 6:03 Understanding the Team and Building Relationships
• 9:04 Analyzing Business Metrics and Performance
• 12:16 Taking Action: Balancing Observation and Decision-Making
• 14:59 Setting Expectations and Goals for the Team
• 20:22 Understanding Leadership Behaviors
• 23:39 The Importance of Active Listening
• 26:39 Delegation and Coaching in Management
• 30:24 Feedback and Continuous Improvement
• 33:03 Strategic Thinking in Sales Management

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:12)
Hello again and welcome to the Luxury Choice, a B2B Sounds and Business podcast brought to you by the training team of George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm a Senior Sounds Trainer at George James and I'm also the host and producer of this podcast. Today I have my two colleagues, Jonathan Cooper and Christian Walter. Christian, you're in Switzerland right now. That's where you live, of course. That's where you're based. We're complaining here in the UK that we've had a little bit of snow. We've had literally like three or four centimetres of snow. But I think right now...

Looking out your window, you're getting quite a bit more, aren't you?

Christian (00:45)
Yes, indeed. did have a big dump yesterday night, almost 35 cm or as the English would say 20 inches.

Steve Vaughan (00:40)
Wow. Or the Americans perhaps, yes. I think our country would come to stop Jonathan if that happened to us, wouldn't it? We would literally grind to a halt, wouldn't we?

Jonathan Cooper (00:51)
It would, yes, absolutely. I was just laughing at Christian because being in Switzerland, he was using imperial measurements and I was going to start talking in metric, especially being an old guy. I should be on the imperial and you should be on the metric, Christian. But yes, mean, one centimeter in the wrong part of the UK at the wrong time of day absolutely can bring it to a standstill. yeah, I've heard some horror stories and...

Steve Vaughan (01:07)
You

Christian (01:08)
Indeed, indeed.

Steve Vaughan (01:17)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Jonathan Cooper (01:20)
think of my own experiences, I've been stuck for hours and hours and hours on a motorway with almost no snow but it does cause chaos as most people who live in the UK will know.

Steve Vaughan (01:30)
I once spent the night in my car on the M11 because there had been an inch of snow that froze and all the trucks couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, this isn't a weather podcast. This is a sales podcast. So let's get back on topic. So what are we talking about today? Well, as the listener hopefully will be familiar since we started our second series, we've been alternating every couple of weeks between sales related, know, frontline sales related topics, but also

Jonathan Cooper (01:35)
I remember that, yes, yeah, yeah.

Christian (01:37)
goodness gracious! No.

Steve Vaughan (02:00)
sessions more aimed at sales managers. I'm going to do another one of those today. But as always, of course, please listen to all the episodes, dear listener. We do appreciate you being here. And what we're to look at today, really, and it's kind of a follow on from our last couple of sessions for managers. We're going to look at we've now got the job. It's our first job as a sales manager. Congratulations, we've got the job. We've got the stripes. But now what do we have to do really? What is it we need to think about? Because you've got that sort of

I hate the phrase, but the honeymoon period, guess, really, when you've took on the job, you you're new in role and it's easy to get off on the wrong track. you know, make some fundamental mistakes, which then might come back and, know, sort of bite you if you like further down the line, really. So really what I'd like to explore today, today, guys, are what are the things we need to think about to make sure we hit the ground running. I'm really using a lot of cliches today. Hit the ground running, you know, and really.

get off to a great start. So I'm going to start with you, Christian. So we've got the job. We're now the sales manager. We've got a team of people, perhaps some people we've never met before if we've been hired from externally. What's the first things we need to think about? Where would you start?

Christian (03:10)
Yes, I think it's extremely important that you spend time to get to know your team members. And I think they are as anxious as probably we are in our new role. And they're anxious because they're getting a new boss and there's a lot of getting to know each other. And I believe that it's really time well spent to try and get to know the people.

Steve Vaughan (03:24)
Yeah.

Christian (03:33)
beyond the superficial, know, even, you know, schedule an interview with everybody, half an hour, three quarters of an hour, and really try and find out also what makes them tick and, you know, what are their ambitions? Are they happy as a salesperson for the next 20 years or is there some ambition there? Yeah, just try and get to know them a little bit.

Steve Vaughan (03:59)
As people at this stage, opposed to members of the team, you know, get to know them, what makes them tick and what people are. Yeah. I guess they may have applied for the job. So there might be some issues to manage there if they'd applied for the job that you've got perhaps. I know that was a situation in one of my jobs. How would you handle that one?

Christian (04:19)
Actually, it happened to me, not in my first sales manager job, but in a... And then I addressed it with the person and I said, hey, I suspect you would have been interested for that job and did you apply? And she said yes, and then we talked about it. And I mean, we're still friends these days. So obviously it was good to address it. I would recommend to be open with these things.

Steve Vaughan (04:22)
All right.

Jonathan Cooper (04:23)
To me as well.

Steve Vaughan (04:26)
Okay, so all of us then. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And those first impressions always matter, don't they, Jonathan? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's on your to-do list, Jonathan? Yeah. What's your first thing to do then?

Jonathan Cooper (04:50)
Yes, they do.

Well, I just think it's just worth perhaps extending what Christian has just talked about. I think getting to know the team, I actually quite like the idea of having that, it's almost a of a formal meeting to begin with. It's time you formally put in the calendar to start those discussions.

Steve Vaughan (05:02)
Mmm, please.

Jonathan Cooper (05:19)
But I've been I've always been a great believer and I appreciate that if you're running an inside sales team It looks a bit different to if you're running a field sales team But if you're running a field team or inside sales, I think you're spending time, you know with your team whilst they're you know on the job making sales calls It's just absolutely essential in really really understanding and understanding them It's a great opportunity to observe. It's a great opportunity to listen

and really understand their perspectives, their ideas, their points of view. And I remember doing it with a gentleman who will remain unnamed. He actually had applied for the first sales management role that I'd secured at the same time. And yeah, okay, I'd been successful, but he was the first person that I went to find specifically. And I just remember having a really good opening discussion and he was a fantastic member of the team.

hugely experienced guy and we work together really, really well. He probably knows who he is, although he's retired now. Hopefully he'll reflect on that and think it was a reasonable appreciation of the situation. So I think that windscreen time is so key, as people sometimes call it, that time with your team initially in the field, as Christian talks about. But I think beyond just getting to know the people, of course.

Christian (06:36)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Cooper (06:44)
And it depends where you've come from. You may not be absolutely familiar with the business or the market, but what a great way to start to go learn the market, particularly if it's something, if it's new to you. I think that time in the field, there's no substitute. Yes, you can read about it. You can go to conferences, seminars, exhibitions. There is no substitute to meeting customers with your sales team in the field or listening in on calls, perhaps, if that's okay.

Steve Vaughan (07:06)
No, completely.

Jonathan Cooper (07:12)
with an inside sales team. So yeah, that's, I mean, it's a great place, you know, to start strongly agree with Christian's view there.

Steve Vaughan (07:17)
you

Yeah, get out in the field as soon as possible. Yeah. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian (07:20)
I'd like to follow up on that, if I may. You mentioned windshield time, Jonathan, and I think this is such a precious opportunity to talk to team members. it's a less obtrusive way than perhaps a meeting because you're one person's driving, the other person's a passenger. And it's quite easy to have a good conversation without the formal setting of a meeting room. So I quite enjoy that.

Jonathan Cooper (07:47)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (07:47)
Absolutely. Yeah, obviously travel safely of course, but yes, it's great time to have that sort of really get to know people at a more than superficial level, isn't it really so? I guess as well as getting to know the people, Christian, we've got to get to know what state the business is in as well quite quickly, and particularly if it's not going very well very quickly. So what are your thoughts there in terms of the first things we need to do really?

Jonathan Cooper (07:50)
Yeah.

Christian (07:54)
Ahem.

Jonathan Cooper (07:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian (08:13)
Yeah, I think you need to quickly understand the numbers, the ins and outs, the stats of your business. know, what are the key performance indicators? What's the target? What's the average sales price? What's your cycle time? What number of opportunities do you need to have in your pipeline? So I think this is the more number driven stuff which helps to get in charge really quickly.

Steve Vaughan (08:44)
Absolutely. Yeah. And Jonathan, I know you love the numbers. It's a key part of what you do.

Jonathan Cooper (08:48)
Yes, absolutely. you know, I think as you take this role on for the first time, I'm not saying great salespeople don't make data driven decisions, right, and don't make decisions based on facts and validated information. But now, you know, the decisions arguably that you make as a sales manager become more important. And I think, you know, start the way you mean to go on. And that is, you know, make decisions based on data, facts, validated information.

hey, we should always trust that gut feel we have, we should always trust our emotional intelligence. But if it's telling you something, probably go find the data to support that. But I think, as Christian said, it's so important to, because the numbers don't lie, okay? They simply do not lie. And it's really important to understand where the team is, where the individuals are, where there's real strength, where they're struggling, where the gaps are.

Steve Vaughan (09:29)
Hmm.

Jonathan Cooper (09:46)
And I think just as well to see how do the team manage their way to their targets or to preferably exceed their targets. And have they got all of the data they need to make the decisions that need to be made? At some point, we're going to get into a planning phase. So again, it's just a great way to check what's previously been done or not done. Look at the execution piece as well.

But it all starts with this enthusiastic analysis of the numbers, okay? Let's not paralyze ourselves through analysis, but let's understand the business from that perspective as well. And then we can bring that perspective of the market when we're timing the field together with that, and it starts to give us a good indicator of where we are today. And it's always important to know that, so yeah.

Steve Vaughan (10:20)
Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. One of the things I learned very early on, I was told very early on anyway, was not to do anything in the first three months, just to listen and learn. But actually, would you agree with that Christian? Because I think sometimes we don't have the luxury of that really. If things are really in critical care, and we just sit back and listen and learn for three months, perhaps we don't have that luxury, we really?

Christian (11:01)
No, don't think we have. agree very much with the listening and the getting to know. I think that's extremely important, but it can't be the only thing happening in the first three months. Perhaps something is in dire straits and needs improving quickly. And then I think we should try and improve it. Maybe communication is broken down, so that needs to be addressed or people don't understand their numbers. So that needs to be addressed. Maybe one sales guy doesn't have enough leads.

Steve Vaughan (11:05)
Mm-hmm. Of course.

Hmm.

Christian (11:31)
really struggling to fill his funnel. And so we really need to act as well as just listen and understanding is all very good, but action is also needed.

Steve Vaughan (11:44)
Yeah, particularly if there's some obvious quick fixes, I guess, really, but you know, the way you can see things, clearly aren't right. And with a bit of attention and focus, you can, you can put that right. Cause I guess, you know, everybody's, you know, we're doing this great listing exercise again, to know our team, which I agree is super important, but they're going to be assessing you as well, just as much really the team and also our, you know, presumably we've got bosses above us. They're going to be assessing us as well, really. I guess Christian, don't, you know, we can't

Jonathan Cooper (12:04)
Correct.

Christian (12:06)
Hmm

Steve Vaughan (12:13)
just have that sort of laissez faire approach we've got to be showing to our team and also to our our bosses that we are on board with you know we're looking to do things not not knee-jerk reactions but putting things right that need to put right sooner rather than later really I guess do agree?

Christian (12:29)
Yes, and address if you're not happy with something, you know. The sooner told, the less something becomes a big issue. I love that poem that says something like I...

Steve Vaughan (12:33)
Mmm.

Mm.

Christian (12:45)
I can't remember exactly, about anger with somebody and you tell them and the anger goes away and if you don't tell it the anger increases over time and I think that's very very true also in management you know if you see something's not working you need to address it quickly and then the problem can be solved but if you watch and observe for too long then it becomes a big issue.

Steve Vaughan (12:51)
Hmm.

Yeah, it is true.

Jonathan Cooper (12:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (13:11)
Yeah, because we're not sort of time and motion study people, we're aren't we? You know, so it is our job to manage the business, Jonathan. You know, it's not our job just to listen and observe forever. You know, we have to get our sleeves rolled up, we?

Christian (13:15)
You

Jonathan Cooper (13:20)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. And I think that I think it's always a great question. And if I reflect on, you know, my my my time, you know, in various management roles, I would say it was probably the one of the mistakes that I made was I was too slow to take action. You know, I could see what was, you know, what was I won't say wrong, but I could see what was right and what needed to be fixed relatively quickly. And I for whatever reason, maybe lack of confidence, just a lack of

Steve Vaughan (13:41)
Me too.

Jonathan Cooper (13:54)
Maybe I didn't have all of the data that I needed to be sure of the decision, but I was too slow and I see it affecting new managers coming in. And one thing is for sure these days, business has changed a lot and people expect there's that almost immediacy of a result. And I think it's a great piece of advice if you can see things that need to be put right, that need to be addressed.

you know, please, please do it. You know, and, you know, one thing is for sure, the team absolutely are observing you and, you know, you know, watching what you do. And, you know, and if you don't address something that's obviously wrong, I know how people feel because I once watched a manager of mine not address something that was clearly wrong.

Steve Vaughan (14:32)
official.

Jonathan Cooper (14:47)
And I was thinking, when's the person actually going to address this? When's the person going to address this? We can all see it, okay? We can all see that something needed to change. So yeah, so I think really important that you take that action and don't just wait for that, well, just, know, first three months I'm going to, you know, find out what's going on, dare I say it, first six months before I make any change. No, if you can make some immediate moves and hey, if you can see some quick wins that improve.

Steve Vaughan (15:16)
Absolutely.

Jonathan Cooper (15:17)
the team, the performance in some way, fantastic. You should be getting on with those things. So I'd encourage you, if you're a new manager, you've just got those stripes, please, please, don't hesitate, don't hesitate, because nothing will change, it just gets worse normally, as Christian alluded to.

Steve Vaughan (15:23)
Yeah.

Christian (15:36)
Maybe just one thing here as well. the team expects you to be their boss. They don't expect you to be their friend.

Steve Vaughan (15:48)
Yeah.

Christian (15:48)
And that's definitely a mistake I made in my first managerial role. I wanted to be the friend to everybody and that doesn't work. They want to have a boss and the boss also needs to take some unpopular decision and maybe punish or at least sanction behavior that's not acceptable. Because obviously you always have, you know...

some team members that maybe work more and some team members that work less and I think the ones that work more would actually like it to be addressed with the ones that work less and so the boss really needs to deal with that as well.

Steve Vaughan (16:20)
Hmm.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a really good point. think there's a fine line between being too slow to react to things, you you want to observe and listen for too long. And then the flip side, which is diving in immediately, making knee-jerk decisions, possibly making bad decisions on bad information, really. And I guess that's where if you're a new manager, you see guidance from your boss around those areas, really. I want to move on a bit. think we've looked at, you know, we've got the job now.

Jonathan Cooper (16:38)
Yep. Yep.

Steve Vaughan (16:58)
what is the job telling us? What is the data telling us? What are the people telling us? But I think we also need to think about Christian setting the expectations moving forward. So they're going to, the team going to look at you in terms of what you're going to expect from them in terms of, I guess, KPIs, metrics, behaviors, all those kinds of things. So I think it's, I'd like your thoughts on this. think to me, it's really important that we define those really early on.

because it's difficult to do it six months down the line really. Why is he bringing this in now?

Christian (17:26)
Yes.

I'm a great proponent of management by objective and what I mean with that is no

Steve Vaughan (17:35)
Right. Yeah, good way putting it.

Christian (17:39)
necessarily detailed KPIs to tell how many visits per day, how many phone calls per week, how many codes per month and you know this is all too detailed. I'm not interested in that. I'd rather talk to the salespeople and decide this is the target company we want to penetrate and then we discuss what kind of activities can be done over the next three months and ideally these goals are set in a discussion with the

with the staff and not as a top-down target because in the end only when the staff believes that they are worthwhile will they incorporate it and do it. And so I really believe sort of a rough guidance and objectives and then the salesperson gets on with it and obviously we stay in touch and give feedback.

Steve Vaughan (18:10)
Mmm.

passed from high. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So it's setting expectations, Jonathan setting goals, priorities, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Jonathan Cooper (18:42)
Yes, yeah, that's right. And I think alongside those objectives, which normally relate very closely to our business activity, one of the things that I was informally taught by somebody who was a really good leader, I've got huge respect for, she was dynamic leader. One of the things that I saw her do and I copied, I have to say was,

She very quickly when she moved into role made it really clear what her expectations were. But expectations both ways. You know, as she said to me, you know, this is what, you know, I expect of you as my sales team, but hey, look, this is what you can expect of me. And where that focus was, was largely in terms of behaviors. So, you know, for any new manager, you may have been given a job, a new sales manager, you may have been given a job description, but

But from that, and I think as part of that, be really clear on what the desirable set of behaviors are. Because ultimately, it is one of the ways you will be judged on your ability to role model those desirable behaviors. And the sooner that you've got a really clear understanding of what those are, the easier it is to get to work on it. So yeah, defining expectations both ways is...

you know, just absolutely crucial. And I found generally that people really like that. They know where they stand, right? You know where you stand in indeed with them. And just having that set from the beginning is very powerful.

Steve Vaughan (20:24)
I just want come back to this word behavior because I think it's a really important word, but perhaps one that we don't use enough in sales. We talk a lot about actions, objectives, goals, but behaviors is perhaps a word that we don't use quite so much. So what's your view of that word and understanding of that word, Christian? What do you see me by behaviors?

Christian (20:41)
So yes, I think it's actually important what what Jonathan said about what people can expect of the boss and

Steve Vaughan (20:45)
Me too.

Christian (20:50)
In Switzerland we still have conscription, so we do military service. I was a sergeant in the army. One of the things we learned, the sergeants ate last. When there was dinner in the field, always made sure that private soldiers had their dinner first. When there was anything left, we would eat. This is quite important, I believe.

Jonathan Cooper (20:57)
Wow. Okay.

Christian (21:14)
Being a boss is not about taking privileges. Being a boss is about making sure your team comes first and you look after your team and they will look after you. And so a certain humility, I believe, is important as well. And this is what I see as the right behaviour for a boss. I don't know if that's clear enough, but I think this is really quite important.

Steve Vaughan (21:16)
Absolutely.

of that.

really important point.

No, I think it's a great example. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, no, I'm now a boss now, so I'm not interested in my team. I want to go and do boss things with the managers of the company and, you know, be seen to be doing boss things, whatever that is, it's actually recognizing that your success is from their success really. Have you got an example of the kind of behaviors as well, Jonathan, that you could think of? I don't mean a military one necessarily, but...

Jonathan Cooper (21:38)
Very, yeah, very, very good.

No, I can't give one. I think we've already mentioned it, but for me, one of the critical behaviors as a sales manager is that ability, especially over that first period of time that you're in place, but actually, it's arguably never ending. It's just that ability to actively listen. I will say, I think I've spent my lifetime, my life practicing it.

Christian (21:59)
You

Steve Vaughan (22:23)
Mm.

Jonathan Cooper (22:28)
And I still fail the test, I think, on a regular basis. I find myself saying sorry to people for interrupting them. I do my very best, and I think I'm a lot better than I was. Probably a lot of room for improvement, as some people know. But I think that is something that, for a lot of people, as they step up and they take this role full time, it is a really important thing to learn, to give people the time to express themselves. And sometimes, you may have asked a fantastic question as a...

as a manager, as a sales leader. the answers sometimes just don't immediately come to people, giving people the time to reflect on the question and answer it, even with some long pauses. It's just a really small thing, but it's also an incredibly important thing, as a sales manager, in fact, any manager and leader, isn't it, in reality? Of course it is. But I think that's a there for me is a behavior that genuine ability

Steve Vaughan (23:17)
Yeah, super points. Yeah, completely, completely.

Jonathan Cooper (23:26)
to actively listen. And I remember Prew, so Prew, I hope I'm okay saying this Prew, used to be a Samaritan. Okay, so if you don't know, that's an organization in the UK that really is, I'm afraid, one of the final points. It's a charitable organization that does some amazing work helping people when they're feeling extraordinarily low, probably very depressed, even, and sadly, thinking about taking their own lives.

And I remember her telling me she went on an active listening course and you just think, wow. And I remember her saying, I wish I had those active listening skills I'd acquired on that course now, you know, in her role. And it just helps you realize, wow, there is just so much more you can do to learn to do that. So there for me, you know, is a great example of a critical behavior that we need to develop as managers and leaders in a sales function.

Steve Vaughan (24:06)
you

Absolutely.

Yeah, thank you.

Jonathan Cooper (24:26)
customers and our team members and of course our colleagues across the business as well.

Steve Vaughan (24:26)
Great stuff.

Absolutely. Yeah, great examples. So we've gone a bit on. we are carrying on, please. Yeah, go on, Christian. Yeah, yeah, no, go on. Yeah.

Christian (24:34)
Yeah, I'd like maybe, sorry Steve, know, following up, following on from that. I remember more than 20 years ago, you were the sales manager in the UK of a company we both worked for. And I was an applications chemist. Okay. And I used to go out with some of the sales guys and we drove to some customers and we did a demonstration and hopefully we would...

Steve Vaughan (24:51)
It's at least 20 years, yeah.

Christian (25:02)
do a good job and eventually this would result in an order. many road trips, I think your people would call you and just to bounce some ideas and tell you how it went and, you know, recount the story and ask for some input. And I think that's a very important part of a first level sales manager, you know, be there for...

for the people, listen to their sorrows, you know, I think I didn't do a good job here, or the customer was quite critical and maybe then help to deal with that. Also when maybe you lose a sale, and when you lose a sale, perhaps you need a friendly ear to tell the story. And I think you did that exceptionally well. I mean, it's more than 20 years ago, so I can tell that now.

Steve Vaughan (25:52)
Yeah, you do. Thank you.

But you're exactly right. And I remember it well. then, you know, when I move on to a different organization in my career a few late years on, and I'm the sales director, I would do that to my boss sometimes, you know, the MD, I would say we've been out in this corner, I just need to talk through a scenario. So I don't think it stops at our desk as a sales manager, you know, we also need to communicate upwards and listen upwards as well. Thank you for the example. And I'm glad I did it right on the time. It's a long time ago, as you say.

Jonathan Cooper (26:22)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (26:27)
And just one other point I wanted to explore Christian if I could, and that is we've now got this job, I mean, I it's probably our first sales role. And again, thinking back to that time you mentioned, really, I know one of the things I got wrong was that I tried to do everything. You know, I'm the sales manager now, so I'm everything has to, you I'm in charge of everything. I have to manage everything. And I think that's a trap we can fall into. And I think learning how to delegate is a difficult thing to do as a new manager. Would you agree on that one?

Jonathan Cooper (26:28)
you

Christian (26:56)
Yes, because you tend to think that you can do it better than the staff and perhaps you can, but even if you can, your role is different. You need to enable your team members to become better and to be able to do it themselves. So you mustn't step into their role. And I think that's a key pitfall. Jonathan is nodding. I'm sure you have similar examples in your past.

Steve Vaughan (27:01)
That's, yeah, yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Jonathan Cooper (27:21)
Hahaha!

Steve Vaughan (27:23)
Well, we covered this a bit on our session about being promoted from the team, but yeah, I think it's a good point to revisit. yeah. Go ahead, Jonathan.

Jonathan Cooper (27:27)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I'll never ever get tired of this discussion because I just see it as being one of the biggest wins for most sales managers. And I just see it as being one of the ways they can improve their performance the most and that of their team. And of course, it's a precursor to being able to delegate, it's to be able to coach. I presume I can mention the title of a book, I'm sure.

Steve Vaughan (27:34)
Hahaha

Hmm.

Jonathan Cooper (27:57)
The authors won't mind. But those great little, you know, that great little book on situational leadership, you know, helps you understand the importance of coaching and actually how it's almost a pathway, isn't it, to ultimately being able to delegate. As one of my senior leaders once said to me, he said, Jonathan, you should get a list of the stuff that you're going to delegate together. You know, get a list together. So you've got constantly have a list of the projects, the tasks, you know, those things that...

Steve Vaughan (27:57)
Good.

Jonathan Cooper (28:27)
that yes you can do, but are actually great for your team members in terms of developing them, stretching them, know, really, you know, they may find them very motivational. And of course you're absolutely right, that they may produce some results which, know, or ways of doing something which you just would never have considered. no, the delegation piece is key, but I'm sorry, I just had to get the coaching bit in as well, because, you know.

Steve Vaughan (28:50)
That's fine.

Jonathan Cooper (28:52)
But absolutely critical, because as a new manager, here is arguably a very big change for you as you step up. You're a new manager, you're a full-time manager. You seriously need to reflect on how much time you tend to spend coaching and genuinely coaching, not telling, which is a very easy thing to do. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (29:10)
And I fundamentally agree with that. And we will spend more time looking at coaching further in the series. But yes, go ahead, Christian, please. Yeah, Well, we'll see.

Jonathan Cooper (29:17)
good, I hope I get invited to that one. There could be a fight for that one because I know we're all passionate about it.

Christian (29:19)
No, I was just going to say...

Steve Vaughan (29:24)
We are, yeah. Come on, Christian, yeah. Yeah.

Christian (29:25)
I was just going to say how much I agree, know, and particularly when Jonathan said coaching, not telling, because coaching is helping the person to find out the best way forward, what they need to do and how you can perhaps help them. It's not about telling them, hey, you should do this, you should do that, or you should more of this or less of that. They need to find out themselves and then it becomes powerful.

Steve Vaughan (29:30)
Hmm.

Absolutely.

Yeah, completely. We have a podcast planned, Jonathan, called Why Don't My Team Do What I Tell Them To Do? And that will be all about coaching. So dear listener, you have to hang on for that one. That will be in a few weeks' time. So what I'd to get from both of you, perhaps, is one more thought then, if there's anything else you think we've missed, because we've already gone through half an hour on that. there anything, any?

Jonathan Cooper (29:49)
Yeah, absolutely.

All we do, that's correct, yes, yes, yeah.

Brilliant, good.

Wow. Yes.

Steve Vaughan (30:13)
fundamental point that we've missed. Okay, we have to wait, Jonathan, because it's Christian's turn.

Jonathan Cooper (30:18)
is it? okay, fine, no problem. Let's hope he doesn't come up with mine.

Christian (30:22)
So I was going to mention feedback or maybe feed forward, maybe as it should be, because feedback is only relevant if it leads forward into behavioral change or into an adaptation of behavior for the future. And I think it's very important that we give feedback. It's not a one way street. It can also be from the employee to the boss. But of course, as a boss, when we go out and

Steve Vaughan (30:24)
Ha ha ha.

Christian (30:52)
and have joint visits or when we have meetings and we see how the people interact with each other, I think it's our duty to give feedback. And I always try to give three positive feedbacks for anyone critical, because I think it's much easier to digest. But I think it's really, really crucial to get better. You can only get better from feedback and maybe from self-reflection.

Steve Vaughan (31:09)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely and as Ken Blanchard said, feedback is the breakfast of champions. Yeah. So was that your one Jonathan or did he have something different?

Jonathan Cooper (31:23)
Yes, indeed. Yep. Yep.

No, I had one slightly different. it's a big topic. So I'll just briefly, very briefly mention it. And it depends on the size of the organization you're now a sales manager in. But at some point, somebody's gonna start talking to you about strategy, execution of a strategy or the development of a strategy. And...

Steve Vaughan (31:29)
Okay, good, go for it.

Jonathan Cooper (31:53)
And the roles that we've generally had beforehand have been much more tactically orientated, probably very tactical. Execution has certainly been a part of that, but now we move into a sales, first line sales management role. Again, depending on the size of the company, you may be responsible for developing strategy. How will you win, okay, moving forward? And the people above you in the organization would expect you to bring something.

Steve Vaughan (31:57)
Yeah, completely.

Jonathan Cooper (32:21)
in terms of your business, how are going to win, how are you going to grow, how are you going to exceed the goals. And actually, it's a part of the job that I absolutely loved. I didn't realize I would, but really, really got a lot from it. So there is something else I'd just put on the, just mention at this point, as a brief starter for 10, I think they say on University Challenge. So there we go. Yep.

Steve Vaughan (32:50)
Do they still do that? I haven't watched that for years. Is it still on? I don't know. I'm sure it probably is. If you know, dear Lester, please let us know. I'm sure you would do, yeah. Is University Challenge still on TV? That was the question. Pambergasco, that's going back many, many, many years. I remember the Young Ones episode around that, but that's completely off topic, so we won't get there.

Jonathan Cooper (32:54)
No, neither have I. So I don't know.

Christian (33:00)
Not sure I understand the questions.

Jonathan Cooper (33:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Yep. Correct, but entertaining.

Steve Vaughan (33:14)
Any final thoughts, me and you, before we wrap up guys? Any final thoughts at all? Anything else we missed? Any final comments before we wrap up?

Jonathan Cooper (33:22)
I think I'd just add something onto the back of what Christian said about feedback and that's take feedback on your own performance, okay? If you've been smart enough to understand the behaviours that are necessary, that are important for success in that role, take feedback from people on your behaviours, those things that they see you doing well, those areas where they see a need for potential development. And you can take multiple perspectives.

Steve Vaughan (33:29)
Yeah, completely.

Jonathan Cooper (33:51)
you know, a lot of people who interact with. Look, it may not be a full 360 at this stage or a 180, but, you know, it's just to take that anecdotal feedback, you know, could be really important thing to do early on. So that'd be the last thing I'd add. Yep.

Steve Vaughan (34:04)
Absolutely.

Christian, you done? Anything else from you?

Christian (34:10)
Yeah, maybe one thing I'm quite passionate about, know, look after your team and your team will look after you. And sometimes this requires broad shoulders. When corporate comes with some corporate horse dung or cow dung, sometimes you...

Steve Vaughan (34:18)
Yep, completely.

Initiative, think was the word you were looking for.

Jonathan Cooper (34:33)
you

Christian (34:33)
Sometimes you need to stand broad-shouldered in front of your team and shelter them from the cowdung. I think they will reciprocate, how do you say that? will return the favour. Reciprocate, thank you, Jonathan. Return the favour and look after you when the going gets tough.

Steve Vaughan (34:39)
You You do.

Jonathan Cooper (34:40)
Guess.

reciprocate. Yes. No, no, no problem.

Steve Vaughan (34:50)
We replicate, we turn the foo.

Super point. We've been around lot of places today. We've been looking at the weather, we've been looking at farming by the sound of it as well.

Jonathan Cooper (34:57)
Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's if that last point even makes the edit, we'll find out. Okay, good. All right. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Christian.

Steve Vaughan (35:07)
It will, promise it will. Guys, thank you very much for your time today, Christian and Jonathan. And thank you dear listener for joining us today. Hope you found it useful. Don't forget if you want to make sure you get all the episodes of The Luxury Choice. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app, Apple, Spotify, all the main apps you'll find us there. Don't forget to also to give us a review. We'd love a review, ideally a five star review.

Christian (35:15)
You take care. Thank you very much.

Steve Vaughan (35:34)
again on Apple or Spotify does help us in lots of weird and mysterious ways. I'll be back again in two weeks time with another episode and another cast from our growing team of trainers here at George James Limited. Also, don't forget to check out our LinkedIn page. So we have a George James training LinkedIn page and it's a great place to go and find useful articles, clips from this podcast and also from our LinkedIn live sessions and also some thought provoking.

Jonathan Cooper (35:36)
Very good.

Steve Vaughan (36:02)
documents and the things that we're sharing there. So don't forget to go and check it out and follow us there as well so she'll make sure you'll get those coming into your LinkedIn feed. Thanks again for listening. We'll talk to you soon.