International Women's Day - Why do we need IWD in 2025?

This is a special bonus episode around the topic of International Women's Day. On March 8th each year, IWD has been in place for over 100 years, and recognizes the achievements of Women worldwide, as well as campaigning for gender equality and inclusiveness. Steve Vaughan is joined by his colleague Jayne Green, plus two business leaders from the fields of lab equipment and life sciences - Belen Diaz and Johana Kuncova-Kallio. 

They discuss amongst several topics:

• Why do we still need IWD in 2025
• Cultural aspects to gender equality in business
• The barriers to women's career advancement
• Challenges and progress for Women in leadership 

Belen Diaz on LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-belen-diaz/

Johana Kuncova-Kallio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuncovakallio/

https://www.internationalwomensday.com/

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche and Jayne Green are Sales Trainers from george james ltd. You can email the show at: Podcast@georgejames-training.com

The trainers on LinkedIn:

Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/


george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:01)
Hello again and welcome to the Luxury Choice, a B2B Sounds and Business podcast brought to you by the training team of George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm a Senior Sounds Trainer at George James and I'm also the host and producer of this podcast. Today we've got a special edition of our regular podcast. So this is a special guest episode over and above our normal cadence of two shows a month really. And what we're looking at today is a particular

day in the year, it's International Women's Day, which is every year on the 8th of March. And what is International Women's Day? Well, it's a specific day dedicated to the advancement of women worldwide. And it's marked by millions of people worldwide, and it celebrates the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. And the day also marks a call to action for accelerating gender equality. And in fact, the theme for International Women's Day

this year is Accelerate Action. So not surprisingly with that introduction, have four, sorry, three, plus me, three women joining me here today. So I have three ladies and let them introduce themselves as we go around the group. So in no particular order, I have Jayne Green, Belen Diaz and Johanna Konkova-Kallio. And please tell me if I pronounced your names correctly, ladies. I did my best there, so.

Belen Diaz (01:21)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (01:23)
So I'm going to start with you, Belen, and please, first of all, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Would you briefly just introduce yourself and your background and of course where you're based.

Belen Diaz (01:33)
Hello, thank you very much. So I'm a Spanish and I'm a chemist. I studied chemistry a few years ago. And then after many, my career in the lab for many years, I ended up in Dionex as one of my first roles in sales and marketing. until Thermo acquired Dionex, I spent some more years there in Switzerland, based in Switzerland. And then I moved already actually 13 years ago to Buchi

I was in headquarters as head of global marketing until four years ago that we opened an affiliate in Spain for the commercial side and I moved here. So now I'm driving the sales of book in Spain and Portugal since this is the fifth year already. And we are here based in Barcelona exactly, beautiful place.

Steve Vaughan (02:05)
Great.

Fantastic, and you're based in Barcelona, I believe. Yeah, It

is, it's one of my favourite places in the world, certainly in Europe. And my colleague Christian Walter, of course, you know, and used to work with, of course. So thank you so much for being here, Belen. So, Johanna, would you briefly introduce yourself to the audience as well?

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (02:34)
Thank you, Steve. Yes, I'm originally Czech. I have spent one year in Strathclyde in Glasgow and then after that I moved to Finland. I did my PhD in automation, but despite that I have worked 25 years in life sciences, first as, let's say, selling IPRs and research.

Then I spent almost 10 years as a CEO in a small company making instruments and finally the past five years as a director in a large company but I was directing a smaller team of UP and Biomedicals. So consumables. Exactly, that's right.

Steve Vaughan (03:08)
Great, and you're in Prague today, but I think you're based in Helsinki normally.

And there's a strong Scottish connection here, Strathclyde and also St. Andrews. So Jayne, of course, you're a regular on the podcast, but could you also just briefly introduce yourself as well? Thank you.

Belen Diaz (03:16)
Mm-hmm.

Jayne Green (03:25)
Yeah, I've got no Scottish connection, just saying. You have pronounced my name correctly.

Belen Diaz (03:27)
Hahaha

Jayne Green (03:33)
Most people spell it incorrectly though. Yeah, there is. But so, yes, I've worked with George James for the past 18 months and I've got a long history in sales in the UK, working for scientific companies. So my first science role or job within

Belen Diaz (03:33)
You

Steve Vaughan (03:35)
There's a why, isn't there? Yeah, well, yeah.

Jayne Green (03:52)
selling was in Fisons Scientific many many years ago, 25 years plus. So worked through there. I know worked with Fisher and we worked together Steve didn't we for some time as well which is amazing and yes and then I ended up having a family and in and out of some sort of different roles over that period of time and then found myself back in again in the world of sales working for a Swiss company called Infors selling bioreactors.

Steve Vaughan (03:59)
Where does time go to Jayne? Yeah, yeah. We did. We did. Yeah. Yeah.

Jayne Green (04:22)
and shaking incubators, growing all things. Very exciting. And here I am today loving it. So yes, thanks, Steve.

Steve Vaughan (04:28)
Fantastic

Jayne great great great to have you here and of course, I'm briefly introduced myself, but I'm I'm Steve and and I've no whether your correction I've got with Scotland is that we go to Scotland regularly on vacation so and I am far rather fond of the Of the alcoholic product that they make up there as well, but we won't go into that today So let's get on to the topic today, which is International Women's Day and and really what I would like to do with this this Sure is obviously

I'm not a woman, obviously, but I see my role in this podcast obviously to prompt discussion and to bring topics to the discussion, really, but also, I guess, to represent my gender, if that doesn't sound so formal in the discussion, really. So International Women's Day, must admit, until probably three or four years ago, I can't claim to have been particularly aware of it as an event or as a movement, if that's the right word, really.

What does it mean to the three of you really? How familiar are you with it and with it as a concept and as an activity really? I don't know who would like to start on that one.

Belen Diaz (05:36)
I don't mind to start. For me, I think it's really important we have this day for awareness. I personally started being closer to this International Women Day maybe like already seven years ago or something. And I tried to use it as a day of recognition for the women around me. I initiated within Buchi and internal and external communication on who

Steve Vaughan (05:37)
Yeah, thank you, Belen.

Gosh. Okay.

Great.

Belen Diaz (06:03)
which are the women we have in the company, which are the success they are obtaining, and still which are the remaining challenges we have, and how much we have to kind of reward these women which are doing good in business and in our industry, because it's a long way still to be fair with men in many situations. So I think it's a day of recognition, awareness, and reflection.

And for me, it's important every year to stop and see where we're standing, what else we can do.

Steve Vaughan (06:38)
Great. Great. Thank you for that. What about yourself, Johanna?

Jayne Green (06:39)
Yeah, brilliant.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (06:42)
For me, think it's been around since my childhood, fact, in Czech, the International Women's Day has been always celebrated.

although not always necessary for the right reasons. Nevertheless, now in Finland I think it's much less in a way needed because Finland is one of the most equal countries when it comes to women and men. I think that on the other hand, I also like to raise awareness that women are an essential part of many industries and...

myself coming from a study where I was the only woman in the whole year of students. So I think I remember that was pretty tough because simply teachers were not, for instance, used to having female on the course. And I always raise my head to everyone who's able to kind of little bit break the glass ceilings and also help other women.

Steve Vaughan (07:21)
Gosh.

Gosh.

Mm.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (07:42)
Sure the way and kind of help them by example how things can be done that this kind of you can do it attitude.

Steve Vaughan (07:54)
Absolutely, yeah great and Jayne what about yourself?

Jayne Green (07:57)
Yeah, think so. I've been very aware of International Women's Day for a number of years. In fact, it's got such a long history, you know, when you look into that. Yeah, which is incredible, isn't it? I think it's something like, you know, yeah, it is. I think literally is something like 110 years or something that it's been recognised and celebrated. And what I love about that is that, you know, over different years, you see a lot of it's a celebration of women that have really achieved.

Steve Vaughan (08:04)
Over a hundred years I read.

Jayne Green (08:25)
And that for me is, you know, seeing good role models for people that are developing in their roles and moving forwards. But of course, there's still a lot to do, isn't there? I think we've moved forward in the UK, you know, by some sort of big steps, but still, you know, there's some levels of gender inequality within, you know, workplace and within our scientific, you know, sector, especially when I, when I think back to when I first started as a sales rep in Fisons as it was.

Steve Vaughan (08:46)
Mm.

Jayne Green (08:54)
I think I was the only woman at the time and then one of the, and it was a very much a male sales force. And of course, most of the customers that we went to see back then were in the positions of purchasing or some of the positions of sort of more influence were men, you know, back then. But of course now it's a very different story, isn't it? You know, we see across our training courses, of course, we see, I think sometimes more women than men in some of our courses.

Steve Vaughan (08:57)
I

Hmm.

Well, I'd hope so. Yeah, yeah.

Jayne Green (09:24)
So, know, times have changed and I think the awareness, International Women's Day has brought a great awareness and incentives, well, incentives but challenges to companies to say, do we address it?

Steve Vaughan (09:36)
Great. Yeah, I you want to make a point. Yeah.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (09:38)
Yes, think that what we have just cracked onto is the UK, Finland, Switzerland. These are countries where I would not say it's perfect, but you can see the light in the end of the tunnel. There are more more women in sales, more and more women in technical positions as well, directors, board members. But there are still many countries where it is not...

self-evident and the change is not coming very quickly. So during the time I was doing global sales, there were definitely countries I would not go to do sales because I was a woman. And this is good to remember that it's International Women's Day and it's good to remember that also showing the countries where it works, that you know this is a way forward.

Steve Vaughan (10:17)
sure.

Jayne Green (10:20)
Yes.

Steve Vaughan (10:29)
Sure. Belen, you wanted to say something?

Belen Diaz (10:31)
And yes, I'm finding it

interesting. think there is definitely a cultural point here. like when I've been studying chemistry or I've been in labs and in every job I was getting, actually women and men were almost the same amount. You you may say like you've been the only woman in sales or the only woman in a school. For me, was not the case. University, we were, I will say, 50-50 or close to. I find it more like it's a point where we stop.

Jayne Green (10:49)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Belen Diaz (11:00)
And then in leadership,

in board positions, in management positions, they are the minority now and one of the really few. And this is what I struggle to don't understand because I see the funnel, it's kind of getting much thinner for us at some point. And I don't know if this is the problem that we don't get opportunity to be promoted or we've put the limitations on ourselves because of...

Steve Vaughan (11:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jayne Green (11:07)
Mmm.

Belen Diaz (11:29)
life balance or I really don't know. think at these days it's not so much the problem of getting more people to study technical topics. I think it's a point on the journey where we have a problem.

Steve Vaughan (11:37)
Mm. Mm.

Jayne Green (11:40)
journey where we have a program.

Steve Vaughan (11:42)
I'm just thinking about, know, the great, points everybody, but I'm just thinking about my own observations really. And I think more, I moved away from, if you like, traditional chemistry in my career and moved more towards life sciences. It seemed that the gender equality became closer when I moved more towards life sciences. don't know if that was just a thing in my particular career, you thinking about the sales teams that I've managed and worked with and worked in.

and also of course as the years move forward. Certainly I think the ratio of men to women became more equal, if not 100 % equal really. So you mentioned the cultural variations and time variations. Johanna, you were going to make another point as well?

Jayne Green (12:18)
Hmm. Hmm.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (12:30)
Give the floor first to Jayne.

Jayne Green (12:32)
Well, maybe we're all going to talk around the same thing. No, I think it's interesting. was in a bit of research and just sort of looking at, you know, in academia, because academia is, of course, the flow through generally into our science world, isn't it? And there are some stats that say it was released by, and again, I can't verify it, but it was a BBC release report. But it was talking that you actually really agree with what you were saying, both Belen and Steve, that actually

Steve Vaughan (12:32)
okay. Sorry, Jayne. I missed you.

course.

Jayne Green (13:01)
In terms of men and women on undergrad or post-grad courses, generally actually there's more women, more women than men on those courses. But actually in terms of when they get onto, you know, full professorship or looking at senior levels, was only women represented only 23%. And so there is, it's like you said, Belin, there seems to be a level that we stop, that it can stop at in terms of progression. But certainly the interest

Steve Vaughan (13:06)
You're distinct.

I'm

Jayne Green (13:28)
within life science for women getting involved in life science and people you know pursuing that career that is certainly a high level of women involved but we do seem to sometimes see a cap in terms of how far women may get within that academic environment. Johanna.

Steve Vaughan (13:43)
Gosh. Interesting.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (13:47)
Yeah, I was just thinking I will come back to this top of the pyramid and I think that one of the reasons is that what is valued. So I think in different companies of course it is different but I would still say that most of the promotions are happening based on people who are getting the numbers, are strict and are kind of...

themselves maybe great sales people or great managers in that sense that they get numbers and then you have the other side which is more developing the personnel and maybe soft skills in terms of getting the people under also to achieve not only yourself and I think this is something which is which is also not related necessarily to purely gender but

Steve Vaughan (14:32)
Right. Right.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (14:43)
definitely also one of the things that are still evolving. This kind of leading by soft skills and not only numbers.

Steve Vaughan (14:44)
Hmm.

Interesting. Yeah.

I was reflecting on my own career before we started recording this today and if I was to really analytical of myself looking back, certainly going back further in time, I'm sure there were things I said and did that I wouldn't be happy with now, around the areas of gender and gender equality and so on. But I can honestly say hand on heart whenever I've looked at hiring anybody,

I did my best to hide them on the basis of their ability and their skills and the gender never came into it really. But from what we're saying here, that isn't the case certainly when it becomes to more senior roles. So I'm going to ask the question, why is that? And I think we need to be really honest about this. Why do we feel that that is happening? Johanny, you put your hand straight up on that one and say, have it to you.

Jayne Green (15:39)
You

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (15:40)
I think

I give it a thought, but I would say definitely it's the children. So when you stay on maternity leave, there are countries like Czech where there is three years maternity leave. If you have three kids, are 10 years out of business and you're, you know, the train has gone. In countries like Finland, it's nine months. You can stay a little bit longer, but nevertheless, I would say a year is quite common.

Steve Vaughan (15:47)
Right.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (16:09)
Within a year it is very difficult to do any part-time job because you would be kind of punished for doing something and your maternity pay would be reduced. It is possible to split with your husband or with your spouse but I would say this is the single most important event in life of a woman that affects the career and kind of the ways around.

is the network. I'd say for me the enabler has been my network of grandparents and friends who were able to help me when I was traveling, that there was someone around for the family. And of course my husband.

Steve Vaughan (16:45)
Sure

Of course, yeah. I see you nodding on that one, Belen yeah? What are your thoughts

on that?

Belen Diaz (16:54)
Yeah,

I don't have the answer, but I think it's really much on that direction. I don't have children myself, which makes my way a bit easier in that sense. think I could really... In the networking events that you have in a company that you start getting steps up, this network happened in moments that other of my colleagues, they have to run home because they have to take care of the children. While you see your main colleagues,

Steve Vaughan (17:21)
Yeah.

Jayne Green (17:23)
main colleagues

having this network, they are relaxed because they have a Wi-Fi.

Belen Diaz (17:24)
having this network, they're relaxed because they have a wife at home doing everything for them when they

go back. So I think this is a cultural thing. It's really difficult to change that. It's not a matter that me as a woman, I want to share this matterhood time with my partner. It has to really be deep chain on men as well to stay more at home and share this responsibility. I don't think it's the only reason, but probably the main one.

Steve Vaughan (17:53)
Right.

Belen Diaz (17:54)
And I see actually some colleagues in management position in sales living because yeah, at some point they want to spend more time with their family. this need to be with the kids is more strong than for men.

Steve Vaughan (18:10)
Sure, sure. And of course, Jayne, are a mom with couple of grown-up lads. from your experience, was that an issue as well, do think?

Jayne Green (18:13)
I am. Yep, yep.

Yeah, it was a challenge. It was a challenge obviously going on maternity leave and then thinking, gosh, I've got a limited period of time to then be able to get back to work and to get back in the game. with all of that, you have to then sort out what that looks like for you. Am I getting nursery place? Do I have family? was nurseries for me. I put my children in.

Steve Vaughan (18:39)
Hmm.

Jayne Green (18:40)
But of course, there's a big drive now. There's a lot more that companies are doing and looking at in terms of maternity and paternity leave, you know, and a cry and a call for some to say, actually, they could be equal. Because I'm not quite sure what paternity is right now, but I remember, you know, back some years ago, was, you men used to get two weeks paternity leave, which the suggestion, the suggestion, of course, was, you know, that actually a man would only need two weeks.

Steve Vaughan (18:47)
Mm.

was two weeks of my time. Yeah.

Hmm.

Jayne Green (19:07)
you know, during

that time, but the expectation that the woman would be there full time to look after children. And that's obviously every family's choice to make that. So I love some of the companies and some of the conversations that are going on that would say, actually, there could be equal amounts of time for maternity or paternity. And, you know, then the family get to decide at this stage, you know, which one of us is actually going back and pursuing this part of my career now.

Steve Vaughan (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Absolutely.

Jayne Green (19:35)
And I

love that, but I think that's a massive step forward for many families and for many people, many women especially.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (19:43)
This is definitely the thing in Finland. So we have this equal opportunity. many, actually in my team, within the last two years, I had two men on paternity leave, which is several months. And it's kind of an enabler for the women to get back to work.

Steve Vaughan (20:05)
Mmm.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (20:08)
Also, I'd say it's much more common in Finland because others do it than also, you know, others are thinking about it. Nevertheless, I'd say seeing men with a little baby, it's maybe less common worldwide than, you know, it could be.

Steve Vaughan (20:16)
Joe, yeah, good to hear, yeah.

Mm-hmm. But anyway, want to say something as well?

Belen Diaz (20:34)
Yes,

I wanted to. I still repeat again that I don't think it's the only problem. I think it's even deeper because I know in Switzerland, I've been living many years in Switzerland and there men go to this military service, some of them like every year a few weeks. So it's not like a mother staying out for a few months. It's a guy for life staying away and they still, they get the opportunity. So it's deeper.

Jayne Green (20:40)
Thank

Steve Vaughan (20:41)
Yeah, I think you're right.

That's right. Yeah.

Jayne Green (20:56)
Yeah.

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (21:01)
I think you're onto

something there, because I'm just thinking about my own experiences and my daughter, I became a granddad just 18 months ago, brilliant, and she lives down in Bristol, but none of her family live anywhere near us. My first wife, her husband and myself were all a good drive away, so they've got the challenges there of, like you say, Jayne, it's nurseries and things really, but they seem to have handled it really well between the two of them.

her and her partner in terms of who does what and things really. But I think you're right, think perhaps in days gone by there would have been a reluctance to promote a woman because the feeling might have been in the back of the head where she's going to go off on maternity leave within a year or something. Hopefully that's not the case so much now, but I think there is something else as well. There's something else there, yeah.

Jayne Green (21:47)
Mm, absolutely.

Belen Diaz (21:49)
be

probably an important element I believe on, I don't know how you say it in English, bias. And this happened to, even for me, like I'm trying to be very aware on every decision I take when I recruit someone. I try to be fair and you see that usually I like the people similar to me more because they have a similar character to me and this probably would happen if the hiring people are men, they are biased for men.

Steve Vaughan (21:55)
bias. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the word here.

Jayne Green (21:55)
bias. Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (22:12)
Inevitable.

Belen Diaz (22:19)
So this could be an important element, I think.

Steve Vaughan (22:20)
Yeah, possibly.

Yeah, yeah, and Johanna yeah.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (22:24)
Actually, my current team, I have more female than male colleagues, but that's only in my team because we are in the biomedicals. When I look at company as a global entity where there's 70,000 employees, I think it's certainly different because it's a paper industry and chemicals industry. But I think that sometimes also women don't want the responsibility. I mean, not...

We have to face it that not everybody wants to take a decision when it's And it is, I'd say, also quite normal that some people prefer to stay out of this kind of, you know, you come home with clear head if you are working nine to five and, you know, you don't have to, you just are there to do the job and come home.

Steve Vaughan (22:59)
Mm.

focus almost. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (23:22)
when you are in a position of responsibility, then you are often bringing the worries home as well.

Steve Vaughan (23:30)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah. And I think,

you know, we've talked about the phrase work-life balance a lot on this podcast. And, you know, I'm very open about the fact I got that wrong in my career about 11, 12 years ago and, you know, myself ill. So everybody's got a personal choice around that, regardless of the gender, I think, you know, in terms of, you know, where they want the career to go, as opposed to what they want from their home life and things as well, really. I was just reflecting, actually, while we were talking, there's obviously been a...

a lot going on politically recently, we won't go into the politics of it, but there's been a large beating in London about Ukraine and lot of leaders were there. And I think there were two women, I think three, there weren't many certainly were there, you know.

Jayne Green (24:00)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Belen Diaz (24:05)
high end.

Jayne Green (24:08)
Mm-hmm.

Belen Diaz (24:10)
I saw the picture and they were the only one wearing colors.

Jayne Green (24:14)
Yes.

Steve Vaughan (24:14)
Yeah, that's right.

All the men are in drab grey suits, the women are. So, you know, I think it's a great discussion that we've got going here. So what's the way forward then? know, I mean, why in 2025? And I know this is very idealistic, but why in 2025 do we need to have an International Women's Day? Why, you know, why is it not just obvious that everybody should be?

Belen Diaz (24:17)
Exactly

Jayne Green (24:18)
you

Steve Vaughan (24:41)
have equal opportunities regardless of their gender and their biology, I guess, really.

Jayne Green (24:48)
think because it's still challenge, you know, and I think, you know, as we looked at, you just look at, you know, the image that you saw of a room full of people and, you know, gentlemen and just a very few women in a very high powered political meeting, you know, so that sometimes can be the view that people take, you know, so I think it's really important that we have this because it still brings these, challenges to the table.

Steve Vaughan (24:50)
Right.

Mmm.

Mm.

Jayne Green (25:14)
So how do we need to improve? What do we need to do next? And I think this is what this particular, you know, 2025 is about acceleration and action. It's very much about, you know, how do we improve? How do we move things forwards? And I think that's important that we, you why we do continue to have this internationally to say, you know, what do we need to address now? Because certainly some areas, you know, I see more women in sales. I see more people when I was visiting labs, many more women in the lab.

Steve Vaughan (25:23)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Jayne Green (25:45)
Are there as many still represented in senior leadership? Maybe not, but women are progressing through. So what are the hurdles? I think one of the big challenges I think is, if we're going to be relevant and be able to look at some of those higher positions or look at people across all of the sectors of our business and within all of the positions and roles within the business, then women at some point need to be included in the decision-making processes.

Steve Vaughan (25:50)
No.

Jayne Green (26:15)
throughout and sometimes they are and they aren't and it depends on industry and depends on individual businesses. But actually to have then a voice within that, not the only voice and which is why I love that you're on this Steve, know, it can't just be a podcast with three women. It needs to have a balance, you know, within there, you know, actually let's have open discussions and real honest conversations so that women also get involved in the decision making process too.

Steve Vaughan (26:15)
Absolutely.

you

I think so. Yes. Yeah.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (26:45)
follow up on this work-life balance because that's definitely one thing that everybody is now striving to but I think that also comes with this home balance meaning between the partners split in the work because you cannot be a high-end leader and at the same time you know a perfect housewife you need to find the right balance for these two jobs in a way as well and I'd say that this is another thing that needs

Steve Vaughan (26:56)
Yes, it is.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (27:14)
raising awareness that in a way if you are able to split the chores at home and who picks the kids and all that then you have also more equal opportunity to advance your carry because for instance my calendar at home often looks like okay I'm going to be two weeks overseas and here I'm going to be in Europe so I know that my husband will pick those days that he's you know on call and vice versa so

Steve Vaughan (27:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (27:44)
That's one

of the things. And the other one is, of course, role models. think this is something which, for me, has been always an enabler, is mentors and role models that I worked with or that I discussed with and see how they see, especially female role models, obviously.

Steve Vaughan (28:03)
Ciao.

Belen Diaz (28:06)
Yeah, I was thinking on the why we still need this day. And of course, we still need it because it's still not equal opportunities. But what I really like is to have this day for reflection and taking, making actions or trying to think how we could improve it. If we never try to implement anything, it doesn't get better.

Jayne Green (28:19)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (28:19)
Great

point.

Jayne Green (28:24)
Yes.

Belen Diaz (28:30)
And I was actually reading a report the other day on ideas and one, it was interesting, we can actually, and we are many companies implementing artificial intelligence on the job and the recruiting process. So then you remove this bias, you remove this first impression that may be not fair. But this is just one example of all the ideas that you can generate in such a day. We internally in the company, when we celebrate

Steve Vaughan (28:44)
Okay.

Jayne Green (28:53)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Very good.

Steve Vaughan (28:54)
Mm. Yeah.

Belen Diaz (28:59)
this day I always bring post-its to the people like what each of us, men or women, because this is something we all do together. What can we do from ourselves? Of course we cannot change maybe all the governments and all the laws, but what can we do a specific action for the next 12 months to improve? And I think this is like the small bit by bit, every little helps that we can get better.

Steve Vaughan (29:07)
Correct. Yeah.

Jayne Green (29:22)
Mm. Yep.

Yep.

Steve Vaughan (29:26)
We mentioned role models a second ago. Is there anybody in business or in politics or in entertainment or anybody that you think takes a role model position in this really that somebody could say, well, look what they do, male or female, I guess, on that really. Anybody want to suggest anybody?

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (29:45)
think in Finland it's obvious for the past years, especially during the corona, we had a female prime minister, Sanna Marin, and I think she has become kind of a role model for many. I think that was definitely one that I can mention on behalf of Finland, I would say.

Steve Vaughan (29:51)
Yes, he's very impressive.

Yes.

Jayne Green (30:05)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (30:06)
Yeah, no, she's

been very, very impressive, particularly around obviously the war in Ukraine and everything as well. yeah, yes. Anybody else?

Belen Diaz (30:14)
I will say more not so in the celebrity side, but I have my role models in my life. One of my sales person, she is for me a role model. She has a family, she's been doing the job for 30 years, exceeding all with results. She's one of the most powerful sales person I know. And I send a message here to Lola, she's for me a role model.

Steve Vaughan (30:31)
Wow.

Jayne Green (30:32)
Yep.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and again, that would be personal for me. I'm always very wary of talking about a role. Role models, I think, are so important. But of course, we can put somebody on a pedestal and then, you know, particularly I wouldn't choose a celebrity because then you see the things that happen and then you go, well, that's that whole image crushed. But we all make mistakes. So for me, again, some really personal, strong women.

Steve Vaughan (30:36)
Well done Lola. And Jayne, anybody else you want to suggest?

Mm.

That's right. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jayne Green (31:03)
not strong women, but just very successful women in my life. Actually one that's sadly now passed away, but was very successful at raising her children and balancing her work and was in a high level of leadership. You know, so very powerfully, a lady called Lynette. And, you know, she was incredibly, she was great at asking the direct questions of people, which is why she I think became where she was. She had an incredible intuition, but she asked many questions. She always remained curious.

Steve Vaughan (31:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jayne Green (31:33)
but she had

Steve Vaughan (31:33)
Love that.

Jayne Green (31:34)
this discipline level within her that actually meant that she achieved what she always desired to achieve, but she was always open to listen and I incredibly respected, you know, her. you know, we all, think, I think to any woman out there, who do you aspire to be or be like, I think is useful, but trusting not, you know, knowing more about them, understanding how they work is really important. But I think there's another question as well. Role models are key.

Steve Vaughan (32:02)
Mmm.

Jayne Green (32:03)
I think, you know, sometimes when we look at women not in a position that are underrepresented in higher level management, you know, I think there's a question of the why. And there's, there have always been some uncomfortable conversations as to why some women don't go for some jobs that actually they could get. And is that because they feel uncomfortable within some of the settings in there, you know, and are people honest enough to actually address why that would be, you know, do I fit in that company?

Steve Vaughan (32:15)
Great point.

Jayne Green (32:33)
Do I operate one in that company? Are there situations or conversations that might make me feel a little bit more undervalued and not actually seen for who I am? And I think they're the questions that in every company, in every team should be open and becoming a little bit more fluid and able to ask and address.

Steve Vaughan (32:53)
Super point.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (32:54)
Maybe I would still follow up on this one. So I think one

of the things is that women often question themselves, you know, am I good enough for this position? Am I, you know, making a bold move to the next level? Sometimes they are questioning themselves while I would say for many men, it would be like, sure, bring it on. And I think sometimes it's, you know, taking this next step is just a question of, you know, yeah, let's just do it.

and trusting your instincts and trusting your skills that you can. What do you think, Belén?

Belen Diaz (33:25)
Very strong.

Jayne Green (33:35)
You

Belen Diaz (33:35)
It

feels like we have to prove more than them sometimes to get it through. I wanted to add something on this role model. I don't want that to sound weird, but I would like, and one of my purposes in my actual job is to become a role model for all the women in the organization. At least I hope I can inspire. And one of the few, and every time we have a meeting with many employees, I try to approach the women to make sure

Jayne Green (33:39)
true.

Steve Vaughan (33:51)
I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yeah.

Jayne Green (33:52)
Hmm.

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (33:57)
super point.

Belen Diaz (34:04)
I raise my voice saying, I'm here. It's a secure place that you can come and talk to me. What do you think are your limitations? What do you think are your ambitions? What are your challenges? Come to me with any bad feeling you have or any hope you have. And this is actually my actual purpose is really that I can manage to get these women in the company to feel fine, to have a place to go.

Jayne Green (34:32)
Wonderful, I love that.

Steve Vaughan (34:32)
I think that's a super point for

anybody listening to this in a leadership role. It's part of our jobs is to be role models around everything we do, but certainly in terms of gender equality. I'm just going to volunteer a female role model in my life and that was my mother, who was the oldest of seven. She was born in 1918. mother died young, so she had to bring up her brother and sister herself really. She was super bright, my mother.

Jayne Green (34:40)
Hmm.

Steve Vaughan (35:01)
And at another time, in another place, she would certainly have gone to university, but that wasn't an option for her really.  she met my husband, my husband, my father, my husband, my father, her husband, after World War II, had two children, my brother and sister, and then much later on in life, I came along and never stopped, never had the opportunities in business or outside of raising a family that perhaps, know, intelligence and a skill.

Jayne Green (35:11)
You

Steve Vaughan (35:32)
never stopped being interested in the world. She died at 96 and was still better doing crosswords than I was, even though she couldn't read them anymore. asked her to read them out for her. But, you know, always be my role model, my mom. Personal reflection. So what I'd like to sort of do to wrap this up, because I think we could carry on talking about this for hours, but...

Jayne Green (35:38)
you

Blah, blah, blah.

Steve Vaughan (35:56)
I'd like to look forward. So what can anybody listen to this podcast, regardless of their role, you whether they're a senior position, know, junior position, whether they're not in business at all, they're just listening, they're stumbled across this for whatever reason. What can everyone, anybody listen to this podcast? What can we do to make things better? What's a, you know, what's a positive action, a specific action we could take? Anybody want to pick that one up?

Belen Diaz (36:20)
I the most, sorry, I can start, the most important in everyday life, I think, is this awareness. Whenever we talk to a woman, if you are a man and you talk or work with a woman in any situation, try to be aware of how are you behaving and how you can try to empower and help this woman to, I think, this small day-to-day lifestyle, the ones that make a difference. And we all can do it.

Steve Vaughan (36:23)
Now go.

Jayne Green (36:28)
Mm.

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (36:48)
Absolutely. Yes. And one from you, Ian.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (36:51)
Actually, I got three, sorry. But that's on personal level, think it's looking around and making sure that when there is your female colleague or friend or someone around succeeding, that you also raise them up and applaud and make sure that you help them with the personal development in this, know, trusting yourself, you can take the next step.

Jayne Green (36:54)
That was great!

Belen Diaz (36:54)
Yeah

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (37:17)
On company level, think something that my company already does is what is called a equal pay where they every year check what is the differences. If you have the same level of job, you are in the same country, you should have equal pay. that's something companies can do. And then, course, on the country level, I would still say is making sure that childcare is available and plentiful and affordable so that it makes sense to go to work.

Steve Vaughan (37:31)
It should be no brainer. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Great points, great points. One from you, Jayne.

Jayne Green (37:47)
Yeah, I kind of too, but merging together. So it's that part that Bellen said about recognition as well, or Johanna said also, you know, recognising as a woman, let's not hold back when we recognise somebody do a great job, whether they're a man or a woman. Because actually, if we recognise, you know, a man's done a fantastic job as a woman, let's absolutely celebrate that in the strength that we, what are we looking for? Are we looking from recognition?

Steve Vaughan (37:50)
Yeah, go for it, yeah.

Jayne Green (38:16)
men to recognise how well women are doing. Actually, now as women we can recognise how well women are doing and how well men are doing. So, know, you know, strong recognition for people doing really well. And that doesn't necessarily mean always mean about the result that they've got and it might do, but it might be the effort they've put in to do that. But the other one is about influence. Recognise we often think we have no influence or we can limit the influence that we have.

Steve Vaughan (38:22)
Super point.

Belen Diaz (38:24)
very good point.

Definitely.

Jayne Green (38:45)
always make sure that we go within our area of influence and we use the influence that we have by speaking, by challenging, by asking questions in obviously a very diplomatic way, but you know, ask and challenge and you know, raise some questions, know, raise awareness. You know, we've got influence, all of us have, and I think sometimes we undervalue the influence we have, so use what we have and just, you know, reach high with that.

Steve Vaughan (39:12)
SuperPoint.

Yeah, great, great points. Go ahead, Johanna. Yeah.

Johana Kuncova-Kallio (39:16)
Maybe this is to finalise having high ambition,

having high ambition, making sure that the women around us, that they set their ambition level high enough that they are not afraid to set it high.

Steve Vaughan (39:22)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah, completely. I think in 2025, know, gender should not be a reason for anybody not to strive to achieve the highest that they want to achieve in their career and their life really, you know, that should obviously not be the case. But sadly, I think still in some parts of the world or even in some industries, there's some work to be done still. that's perhaps another topic for another day. So thank you ever so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed the conversation.

For you the listener, you want to find out more about the three people, and besides myself who have been on the podcast today, I'll put their LinkedIn profiles in the Sure notes. I'm sure they'd welcome a conversation with you about any aspects of business, not just a gender discussion as well. We'll be back again with our normal podcasts again in a short while. Just to let you know that you probably will have missed it by the time that you've heard this, but Jayne and I are also doing a LinkedIn live on this particular topic.

and that's the day before International Women's Day, which is the Friday. And we're joined by a lady called Martina Neville, who's also got lots of interesting thoughts around this particular topic. you will probably miss the actual live broadcast, but it will still be on our George James training page. So check it out there. And of course we do those on a regular basis as well. Thanks for listening, everybody. Don't forget to give us a review on Apple or Spotify. help us in lots of weird.

and mysterious ways. We'll be back again soon. the meantime, happy selling and we'll talk to you soon.