Mastering Team Dynamics in Sales - The Art of Situational Leadership

In this episode of the Luxury of Choice podcast, host Steve Vaughan, along with colleagues Pru Layton and Pascal Le Floch, delve into the complexities of sales management and leadership. They explore why some team members respond better to certain managers, the importance of understanding team dynamics, and the various styles of situational leadership. The discussion emphasizes the need for self-awareness, effective coaching, and the balance between management and leadership roles. The episode provides valuable insights for sales managers on how to adapt their approach to meet the diverse needs of their team members, ultimately fostering a more productive and harmonious work environment.

Key Takeaways

• Understanding team dynamics is crucial for effective management.
• Self-awareness is key to improving team relationships.
• Different team members require different management styles.
• Situational leadership adapts to the needs of the individual.
• Coaching is essential for developing team members' skills.
• Delegation should be done thoughtfully to empower team members.
• Micromanagement can demotivate experienced employees.
• Regular check-ins are important for team support.
• Leadership is about guiding through challenges, not just managing tasks.
• Effective leadership requires balancing time management with team development.

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche and Jayne Green are Sales Trainers from george james ltd. You can email the show at: Podcast@georgejames-training.com

The trainers on LinkedIn:

Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/


george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

Steve:
[0:00] Hello again and welcome to the Luxury of Choice, a B2B sales and business podcast

Steve:
[0:04] brought to you by the training team of George James Ltd. My name is Steve Vaughan, I'm a senior sales trainer with George James and I'm also the host and the producer of this podcast. And today I have my two colleagues, Pru Layton and Pascal LeFloch with me today. So Pascal, Pru, how are you both? Pascal, how are things in France?

Pascal:
[0:22] Yeah, very good. Yeah, and especially because France is working well with the Six Nations Tournament.

Steve:
[0:27] We should say before we go any further we're recording this episode a little bit earlier than normal so what we don't know right now is what the final rugby score is so let's not get too smoke it could be that england have made a fantastic fight back at the very end but at the moment we don't know because we're not neither none of us are telepathic and Pru how are you really

Pru:
[0:45] Well actually thank you yeah really busy off to london later today for a strap meeting always makes it sound posher when you say strat it's just a strategy chat

Steve:
[0:55] Yeah i love strategy meetings with one

Pru:
[0:57] Of my customers so i'm really looking forward to that

Steve:
[1:00] That should be great yeah and of course we had one quite recently as well but that's another topic for another day so what are we going to talk about we

Pru:
[1:07] All got sent to coventry

Steve:
[1:08] We all got sent to coventry literally but that's another story so what are we going to talk about today so this is one again where we've got the sales managers more in mind but if you're a salesperson please stay with us because i think you'll you'll be able to relate to this from perhaps the other side of the relationship And who knows,

Steve:
[1:23] you may well be a sales manager soon as well in your career. So the topic for today is, why is it that some of my team respond to me better than others? Which sounds like a topic for a PhD thesis, actually, rather than for a podcast. But still, why is it that as a manager, sometimes the team responds to me? And I'm thinking about my own career now. And I can think of times where there's been members of my team where we've just clicked and everything that we were walking together in the same direction, metaphorically, and they just got what I was trying to achieve and vice versa. And there were other members of my team and forgive me Pascal I could have been speaking French to them or Welsh or any other language because we just for whatever reason we just didn't seem to have any kind of chemistry if that's the right phrase and we just didn't really and I'm not talking about personality I'm talking about alignment in terms of actions and that's from a very top level Pascal when we're managing people why can't we just assume that everybody's like us why can't we just treat everybody the same or should we what are your thoughts on that Yeah.

Pascal:
[2:21] Very good question for an introductory point. Great idea, eh? Yes, great. Yeah, thanks, Steve. Yeah, to be very straightforward, I think all of us behave and think and feel differently. So I'm not surprised that some people could react and answer easier to a manager, but the point is, okay, how is the manager talking to them, listening to them? That would be my first point of focus.

Steve:
[2:46] Okay. So in other words, we. Need to take the time to actually understand that our team members are all different people with different backgrounds, career backgrounds, different, I guess, perspectives, really. And recognize that we need to be a bit flexible around that. Is that what you're saying?

Pascal:
[3:01] Definitely different people means different needs, different expectations, different type of support that you can provide as manager.

Steve:
[3:10] Okay. Okay. I can see you nodding, Pru. What are your thoughts on this one?

Pru:
[3:13] Yeah, absolutely. Resonate with that. So I think most of us end up in a sales management role coming from a sales person role. And we know as salespeople that all our customers are different. They may all be trying to achieve the same aims in terms of the science or the technology or the regulations that they're following, but they behave differently. And I think sometimes taking that recognition from our sales experience into our management experience is also important. So not only are customers different, actually, people in our sales team are different for all sorts of reasons. So if you are struggling, like you said, some people, you almost get along with them without having to say anything. They were one step ahead of you or very aligned with you and others, it can feel like a real struggle. So the most important thing to do in that situation is not blame them. Pick a mirror up, have a look at what's in the mirror, and that's the person that has to change.

Steve:
[4:09] Super point.

Pru:
[4:10] Straight away. When you are a manager, part of that crossing the line thing is that you start to be able to be much more self-aware and introspective about how am I going to get the best out of all of my team, not just the few that I really get on with. The majority that I really get on with and one or two that perhaps I lock horns with or find different. So it's all about how I'm approaching them, not how they are. So I think that that's really something I learned the hard way when I first took my first management role, having gone from being one of the team to suddenly becoming their manager. And I've clearly formed alliances within my peer group. And I'm ashamed to say I probably carried them into my management role.

Steve:
[4:55] I'm sure we all probably did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a really good point because potentially the person in the team, that whatever reason you just, to use the phrase, don't click with, might be one of the top performers, of course, and you have to have that kind of relationship. So what we're saying, Pascal, is that we need to modify our approach as a manager to the people, yeah.

Pascal:
[5:13] Definitely, and I really like the parallel line that Drew would draw, let's say, between customers and the team members and the way the manager could think about it. So we all know that we deal, we had some difficulties with some customers. We preferred some and with some others, we struggled because of connection level, because of mindset, whatever. The same could take place with team members. However, as a manager, as Prouk said, you have to make the whole team working well together and performing. So your role is to go beyond your own preferences, maybe what the type of people you like to interact with. Fine. But what about the others? You are their manager, so you have to deal with this.

Pascal:
[5:58] So I think that based on this and considering the self-awareness level you can develop, you have also to adjust your approach, your behavior.

Pascal:
[6:07] And then probably that's the point you would like us to finally go to the situational leadership.

Steve:
[6:13] No, perish the thought. I'd never had that idea. One moment, but yes, perhaps we might be going on to the topic of situational leadership. Let's go there in all seriousness. What is situational leadership? What does that mean?

Pascal:
[6:24] Yeah, this is about adapting your leadership style to the situation. And of course, to the person who is in front of you, who is facing different type of situations, depending where it stands, what happened to him or her, and so on. So that, yeah, probably there is a diagram to share, but during these audio sessions, not so easy. But there are four quadrants and they are related to four types of leadership styles, which mirror four types of behaviors from the team members.

Steve:
[6:56] Okay, so let's go through those in a bit of detail. So what's the first kind of situation that we would describe? So I guess that would be somebody that's new in role or somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing to start with.

Pascal:
[7:06] Yeah.

Steve:
[7:07] Perhaps if you pick up on that one, I'll pass the next one to Pru. So if you do that one, yes.

Pascal:
[7:11] Yeah. Let's start with the beginning then. So someone who just joined as a salesperson or who just shifted from a technical role to a scientific role to a sales role, So let's say it's junior, it's just beginner, or she is a beginner in sales. So for this type of person, she could quickly become quite scared about, okay, what I'm supposed to do, what I'm supposed to deliver, how I'm going to do things and perform. So as a manager, you are here to drive the behavior and to provide direction. Right. So it's more, let's say, it's defined as a directing leadership style.

Steve:
[7:49] Because that person's quite needy from us at the start aren't they they need a lot of support a lot of guidance a lot of direction it's not a case of saying here's the keys to your car here's your laptop off you go and i'll see you in 12 months that's absolutely what we don't do yeah

Pru:
[8:01] That's what happened to me

Steve:
[8:02] It's happened to all of us probably and

Pru:
[8:05] Here's your monodex

Steve:
[8:06] Yeah yeah

Pascal:
[8:08] That's pretty sorry anyway so you're right that's very important to to be clear about Okay, being directive in style is something, but what does it mean in reality? So you have to provide direction. That doesn't mean you have to provide just orders. Do this, do that. No, you have also to explain the purpose, but to be, to allocate a lot of time and energy for this type of person. That's the price to pay to develop. This person to the next level.

Steve:
[8:36] So your leadership style is developing it's supporting it's giving some telling people how to do things not just do to do them this is what i want you to do this is why i need you to do it and this is how you do it to start yes because they probably won't know if they're new in job yeah good so that's very detailed leadership approach and quite demanding on you as a manager if you have a whole team of people in that position obviously it's going to be quite demanding on you as as a leader okay so that's the first sort of step in the sort of four levels of both leadership style, but also, if you like, the directional need of the person. So what's the next one, Pru? What's the next position we get to?

Pru:
[9:11] So the next one is, before we jump to that, I just want to put a word of warning out. I think sometimes we can think of the classic situational leadership model in terms of the person, but just a word of warning, it can sometimes be the task.

Steve:
[9:24] That's a great point.

Pru:
[9:25] Tell me more. So sometimes you've got a really well-established member of your team who's pretty competent and does most things well, but we may have a brand new task that they've never done before. And we can make the rash assumption that because they are experienced and know stuff, that they will be fine with a task. So we can sometimes flex our, consciously think about our leadership style, not only in terms of the person, but in terms of the task that we're going to ask them to do or give them to do. So just a word of warning before we move on.

Steve:
[9:59] So it could be you've got a salesperson really good at selling instruments, but now they're being asked to sell consumables as well. They've never done it before. That'd be a scenario. Yeah.

Pru:
[10:07] But there's also, you've got the person who is the voice of the sales team. We all have had sales teams where we know that someone in the team has the kind of the leading voice. Everybody looks to them for amongst the peer group. And they may be really good. And we may introduce a new sales tool. Let's mention the CRM word. we may bring a new CRM in place and they have all their established ways of doing and managing things and we give them a new sales tool and it's really important for us that they get on board with it actually. Because we know that the sales team looked at them, but they may feel a bit inadequate because it's not something they embrace. I work with some really young people and it terrifies me how quickly they hook on to new bits of tack that I'm still going.

Pru:
[10:54] Yeah, so it could be the task. But in terms of once we've gone past the directing side of it, we go into a kind of a coaching space in terms of our leadership style. So in general terms, this is somebody who has some experience, some knowledge, some exposure to the world of sales. And perhaps rather than tell them what to do next, tell them how to deal with the situation, tell them what they're asking you a question for, we can flip to a more coaching style. So they've got some experience and we can act as coaches and start to get them to trust their own instinct, have a leadership style, which is more questioning rather than telling and saying, you know, what if you, it sounds like you've got a real problem with the customer's budget. Let's take a classic one that we always have. So, you know, what thoughts do you have about how you, what you might do next with this rather than say what I would do, which we love to do, what I would do when I did your job, I did this. It's more kind of getting them to problem-solve themselves, to recognise their

Pru:
[12:00] instinct is right, and they can move on. So a more coaching style. It does take time.

Steve:
[12:06] Is it also important that they get the chance to try things that might not work as well, find out themselves at this stage, or is that perhaps a leap too far?

Pru:
[12:14] Sales manager's dilemma.

Steve:
[12:16] Yeah, isn't it just? Yeah.

Pru:
[12:18] How do you stand back and let somebody fail or not be as successful as they could When you could step in and sort it out, that's a prickly one, isn't it?

Steve:
[12:28] Another podcast for another day.

Pru:
[12:29] But the truth is that most of us have our most important learning moments through failing. If we look not just our work careers, but if we look through all sorts of things, we learn most when we get it wrong. And I think as managers, we have to allow people, when they've got a level of confidence, to maybe get it wrong. When we are in the directing time, we're helping people build a little bit of confidence in their role and know how to do things well. But as we change our leadership style, they trust us more. So if they do fail, they know that we've got their back as well. So I think you can't do that too early. Don't throw someone new out there and, you know, when they come back and they

Pru:
[13:12] haven't done what you want, criticise them. That's totally inappropriate. That's inappropriate. But coach, the next part of the classic situational leadership is that more supportive kind of space where you're coaching people.

Steve:
[13:25] Great. Thank you. So we've got two approaches so far. The very new person doesn't know how to do things, needs your direction, needs your input. We've now moved on to somebody who's got the hang of it to some degree, wants to try things, may not be the finished article by any means. And we're moving more to coaching than telling. So what's the third level, Pascal? Where do we go next?

Pascal:
[13:45] The next one who we've started to mention is the supporting leadership style or approach. So maybe Let's summarize very quickly the two first steps. So the first one, as a manager, you provide a highly directive and let's say low supportive behavior in the sense of the supporting style I'm going to mention or to explain in a minute. And in front of us, we have someone who has low competence and who is highly committed. So the beginner is quite enthusiastic and wants to do things well and wants to break the walls, everything.

Pascal:
[14:22] So that's the point. So the second, let's say, dimension is about the coaching approach where we have as a manager, let's say, still highly directive or still highly directive, but with a high supportive approach with the questioning mode that Pooh mentioned. And in front of us, we have someone who started to realize that sales is not so easy when this is about achieving targets and prospecting and so on. So the commitment level is decreasing. So we have someone who has a lower commitment or low commitment and combined with these low competencies.

Pascal:
[14:55] So that's about it. The third level I'm going to explain is where you adopt as a manager supporting Stein, who is a low directive and a highly supportive model. And in front of you, you have someone who was moderate to high competencies, thanks to the coaching you provided during the second level, and may have some valuable commitment level, depending on the situation, depending on how you interact with him or her, and what happens, and so on. So that's probably the, at least for me as a manager, it has been the dimension where I had to really think twice and put a lot of attention. Where do I stand and where do the other stand really? Does he need or does she need a bit more of a coaching or support for my side? There is a sort of a borderline which was not so clear to me. So you have to, let's say, still questioning the other, but more in the sense that getting his or her feedback to make sure that, okay, what would you like to do next? What do you think should be? Not putting yourself on the high position, but more at an equal position so that the other is more open to express what he thinks could be better to be considered. That's about it.

Pascal:
[16:12] Yeah. And you have to give the owner the feeling that anyway, you will be there to support him or her, whatever it happens. You're in the background, you are there, but you trust the owner on his decision.

Steve:
[16:26] A word again, trust.

Pascal:
[16:27] Yes, you trust him and probably he doesn't need you so much. So you have to convey this message to the owner and everyone can do it with his or her own side as a manager.

Steve:
[16:40] Got here. Okay, superb. So we've now got to the third level of ability and competence

Steve:
[16:46] within the person that we're managing and also the third level of our situational leadership. So what's the final one, Pru? What's level four in both these situations?

Pru:
[16:54] It's the D word, isn't it? Delegating. So yeah, the fourth part of the classic situational leadership model is delegation. And how do you, it's actually delegating completely, which is not abdicating, by the way, which I think is a mistake that some managers make in terms of delegating and abdicating. Yeah, where you delegate tasks entirely to that person that you're working with. And they can often be things for a stretch for that person. Because if we think about the person in front of us, if we've taken them through all of these things, they're often at a point in their career where they frankly need to stretch. They need to be kept busy. They need visible recognition that they're capable of probably a bit more. Than they are currently performing. So that delegating part of the leadership model is all around promoting that person, giving them a lot more control, a lot more ability to influence what's going on. So that's the final part of them.

Steve:
[17:58] Absolutely. And the promoter, it may not be in your power to actually physically give them a new title, but it might just be you giving them the opportunity to step up for things that deputise for you occasionally and when they're meeting and things like that, it might be in those situations perhaps, yeah.

Pru:
[18:11] In terms of competence, they're at a high rate of competence, but what their motivation may be, you need to work on that motivational state of them. So while they can be seen as a kind of deputizing for you, I think additionally, because their competence is high at that stage, you can use them to actually mentor and work with some of the other people in the team to actually bring them on as well. You spoke at the beginning, Pascal, about that directive leadership approach is very time consuming, highly detailed. You need a lot of persistence. If you've got someone in your team who's at the delegation stage in terms of your leadership style, they can often work very well with the people who, you know, you may not have the bandwidth to really work as closely as you can. So somebody who's got the t-shirt, as we should say, as we say, you can, that's part of that delegating thing. I'm delegating the responsibility for you to help this new person to become great at prospecting or really good at handling price or managing the sales process or whatever it is. You can, you can actually do that. Why don't you go out on a couple of joint visits and give them some feedback and that sort of thing. So, yeah, delegation is the final part of it. But understand why you're doing it. And it's a whole other podcast in knowing how to delegate effectively. It's complex, isn't it? It is complex, yeah.

Steve:
[19:36] And you've got to be very self-analytical, which some managers aren't in my experience, including probably me at times, in terms of being able to,

Steve:
[19:42] as you say, look yourself in the mirror. So I guess what can go wrong, really, is that we pick the wrong management style, management approach at the wrong time for the wrong person, Pascal. Is that what can go wrong?

Pascal:
[19:52] Oh, a number of things. If, in a few words, if you apply the wrong situational leadership quadrant, part of the quadrant, to the, let's say, to the right person, no wrongs, whatever. If you apply delegating style to a beginner, then that's a disaster. It's not fair. Because you give him the keys of the car and he's going to crash at the next corner. And that will be your fault, not his fault. Because you considered that he could drive the car. No, you had to go through steps and show him the way anyway. So that could happen. And the other way as well, as Pru mentioned, and it happened to me as a salesperson, but also as a sales manager. So at some point I had a very experienced person in my team and he was so successful. So I was used to delegate him, to let him go with a project and fully trust his, let's say, way of mindset and analysis and so on. And he came with very good results. And suddenly when I gave him again a new project, things didn't work as expected. Very quickly, I could not get feedback and proactive feedback from his side and so on.

Pascal:
[20:59] So I waited a bit. Maybe something is, yes, is coming or is happening in his life, whatever. And it happened again, silence. And okay, I had to jump in. And I didn't realize that actually something happened in his life, although we were very close, but we were so close that I forgot to ask him to dive into the day-to-day life and business. And he just admitted that he had to step back a bit and he could not go on with this project.

Pascal:
[21:26] So I made a mistake to keep delegating him without analyzing more the situation with him.

Steve:
[21:32] That's a good example. And of course, a couple of episodes, a couple of podcast episodes ago, we talked about the importance of one-to-one meetings. And that's where this comes out. Because the mistake we made for somebody who's at the D4 level is that we stopped having the one-to-one meetings with them. And then they start to feel that they're not being listened to or we don't have enough air time for them really. So I always think about situation leadership about me trying to learn the bass guitar so i've got a bass guitar upstairs which is about three years old it's got about four layers of dust on it probably now and when you first try to learn a musical instrument you're really enthusiastic but you make a terrible noise and you need something to tell you explain where to put the fingers and why the strings buzz you keep practicing and then after a while it's a bit hard isn't it you know what it's a bit i'm not sure i'm bothered about this really and that's where after the first as far as i've ever got actually but that's where i probably need somebody come and say let me work with you i'm not going to tell you how to do it but I'm gonna give you some encouragement and give you some support. And I've never got to the stage, but if I ever got to the stage where actually you know what i can do this yeah i'm not giddy lee but i could actually still manage to make a reasonable then a bit of encouragement giving me a chance to actually go out on stage perhaps occasionally and then when i do i've never got there but when i do finally manage the art who knows i might even give somebody else a lesson occasionally that's my analogy for it a very crude one but it's what i can relate to perhaps it might work if somebody listened to this in the pod i think

Pru:
[22:49] The other question you asked steve is about when it goes wrong. So I think you're right, Pascal, in terms of particularly when we're really stressed and busy and we've got somebody who's new and needy and it's really, can't you just get on with it? Not that I've ever thought that, certainly have. I haven't got time right now. But we can go the other way. When you talk to lots of salespeople, actually sales managers, one of the things that they find very demotivating is being micromanaged, that classic micromanagement banner that we get and that's also that's that situational leadership model isn't it if we are being very directive with somebody who's highly competent and motivated the interpretation is i'm being micromanaged and you don't trust me so that's another area where we can make massive mistakes particularly on something that's like very important it's one of the things that where delegation goes wrong we delegate an important task to a competent experienced member of our sales team but it's such an important task that we interfere in it and we don't leave them alone so we say okay here's the task you can do this here are the guidelines and everything and then we're like quick email how's it going how's it do you need any help from me and it's as the recipient of that you're like you gave me the job i know what's going to be done i know what it's going to be done by and now you don't think i'm doing it do you that's kind of micromanagement thing.

Steve:
[24:12] But I guess the flip side is true as well. If it's somebody very new in the role, then we do have to be a bit more micromanager, don't we, really? Perhaps micromanagement is the right, but certainly very hands-on.

Pru:
[24:21] Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a difference between hands-on and micromanagement.

Steve:
[24:25] Yeah, no, I agree.

Pru:
[24:25] I think hands-on is the frequency with which you have the check-ins, your frequency of check-ins. And actually, the check-ins usually come from your more experienced people. We always say that, don't we? That I really, that person's great. They're pretty independent. They make good decisions but they know when to call me so you have that trust that they know when they're struggling or when they're outside their competency or they're not they've tried a few things and they haven't worked and they know when to call you but with a when you're in the directing mode and actually coaching you're much more likely to have those check-ins that bring the opportunities to have the discussions that have to be had you can't rely on them coming to you and saying i really am struggling with this because they don't want to look like they don't know how to do their role they're not yet established enough

Steve:
[25:13] One last thought from both of you on this, which is a fascinating topic. And by the way, it's one we cover extensively in our sales management and leadership course. We also cover it in our channel management training as well, because this also applies to working with distribution partners, by the way. It doesn't necessarily have to be just direct employees, by the way. But what about the comment that I know or the thoughts going through a sales manager say right now, listening to this podcast, I haven't got time to do all this stuff. Sales managers will always tell you they don't have enough time.

Steve:
[25:39] They're going to do N number of reports. They're going to get the forecast done. Rung in sick another member of the team's left you've got to get a update on the strategic plan done by next week i haven't got time for all this kind of stuff what's your response to that pascal to somebody that's thinking this right now because i'm sure somebody is

Pascal:
[25:56] Yeah so in sales manager there are two worlds there are sales and there is manager so as a manager you have to manage people you have to take care of them and you have to get them growing probably when you have less people in the team because of some whatever disease, illness, maternity leave, or you are stuck with hiring more people and you need more, whatever, or you cannot replace. That's the time you need to put more attention and really apply, make the effort to apply this situational leadership behavior and approach, because that will generate results. If you keep doing as you have been doing so far, you will not change the results. It will be even worse.

Steve:
[26:36] That's what Einstein said, of course, keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. So I guess don't forget to being a leader as well as a manager.

Pascal:
[26:42] Yes.

Steve:
[26:43] That's a final thought on that. Yeah.

Pru:
[26:44] I always talk a lot about you're neither a leader nor a manager. Actually, a leadership is not a title that's given. You can have leadership. You can show leadership qualities regardless of your title within an organisation as well. We see some strong leaders who don't have a manager title. But when I talk to people in a management role and we discuss the difference. When things are going really well, what we do is we manage. It's okay to manage. We manage tasks, we manage time, we manage resource, we manage all sorts of things. When things are not going so well, that's when you have to step up and lead. So if you are struggling because you've got an incomplete team because you're struggling to replace for whatever reason, or you're experiencing rapid growth and demand, or highly competitive, that's when you have to step up and start leading. Because when you talk about great leaders, what they do is one of the words that's often associated is inspiring. So when times are tough, as the manager, you have to be more of a leader. So when you say you don't have time, what's more important is to lead the team through this tough time or to get that spreadsheet finished. Because I promise you, when you finish one spreadsheet, there is another one that needs doing. So don't stick your head down and get stuck into the... Managing things, start to actually look up and start leading the team through the tough times and really be aware of your leadership style and how you're getting people through it.

Steve:
[28:11] Some secret point spreadsheets can be viral, can't they? Yeah, they multiply.

Pru:
[28:15] I'm a spreadsheet jockey. That's my real title.

Steve:
[28:18] Yeah, yeah. I'll go there. Pru, Pascal, thank you so much for your thoughts on this particular topic. I think we're going to talk for the next couple of hours around it. If it's topics of interest to you, as I mentioned, We do cover it on both our sales leadership and management courses, but also our channel management courses, because as I say, it also applies to working with indirect partners as well as working with direct employees. If you've enjoyed the podcast today, then don't forget to subscribe to the show. It does help you get the show into your inbox on a regular basis. And also, please, if you do have time, give us a five-star review on Apple and Spotify. It does help us in lots of weird and mysterious ways. We'll be back again with another episode in a couple of weeks' time. In the meantime, happy selling, and we'll talk to you soon.