The Gift of Feedback: A Path to Improvement

In this episode of The Luxury of Choice, Steve Vaughan is joined by Jonathan Cooper and Christian Walter. The team discuss the critical role of feedback in personal and professional development. They explore the definition of feedback, its importance in fostering self-awareness, and the distinction between constructive feedback and criticism. The conversation emphasizes the need for effective timing, the significance of focusing on behaviors rather than personalities, and the creation of a safe environment for feedback discussions. They also touch on the concept of 'feed-forward' and share personal experiences with 360 feedback, highlighting the importance of trust and specificity in feedback processes.

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche and Jayne Green are Sales Trainers from george james ltd. You can email the show at: Podcast@georgejames-training.com

The trainers on LinkedIn:

Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/


george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:00)
Hello again and welcome to The Luxury of Choice, a B2B sales and business podcast brought to you by the training team of George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm a Senior Sales Trainer with George James and I'm also the host and producer of this podcast.

And today I've got my two colleagues, Jonathan Cooper and Christian Valter with me today. Jonathan's in his home office and Christian, I can see, is in his car right now. So guys, how are you both? How are things?

Jonathan (00:25)
Yeah, good thanks. Yeah, don't know where Q1s are gone. That just vanished. yeah, just going really well. Had very good start to the year. Lots of really good things happening. So yeah, can't complain. Thanks, Steve.

Steve Vaughan (00:29)
flown by isn't it?

Good. Good.

And Christian, I you're super busy. You're on road to a meeting right now, I think, aren't you?

Christian (00:43)
Yes, that's why I'm in my car. I'm in a similar situation. Rushed off my feet, never bored. But that's the way we want it to be. So I'm not complaining either.

Steve Vaughan (00:49)
Good?

Absolutely.

Yeah, no, normally busy too as well. But as always, we can always be busier. So, but now it's been a good start of year, think, for all of us. it's obviously an interesting time in the world right now, but we won't go into any sort of geopolitical discussions today. We'll keep that one for another day. But what we are going to look at today is feedback. So not the kind of stuff that we get when Jonathan forgets to put his headphones on, but the kind of feedback I'm talking about is...

what feedback is imported in business. know, being able to give and just as important, probably more importantly, receive feedback is a really important skill in business, in life, fact, frankly, regardless of role. So it's not just a thing for managers. It's something that all of us at some stage in our working life and our personal life need to be able to understand the importance of feedback. So we're to look at this for the next sort of 30 minutes or so and knock it around as a...

as a topic, but I want to start right at the start. I'm going start with you, Jonathan. What is feedback? What do we mean by feedback?

Jonathan (01:53)
Well, you know, I would use the very famous quote from Ken Blanchard, feedback is the breakfast of champions. And it's awfully corny, isn't it? But I'm sorry, it's really, really good. Just a great phrase. And feedback for me, what is it? It's a gift, right? It's something that ultimately enables us.

Steve Vaughan (02:00)
Okay, I you might do that. What does that mean then?

It is.

.

Jonathan (02:17)
to improve, to strengthen the things we do well, and improve sometimes the things that we don't do so well. So feedback for me is this gift. I think I'd also say that feedback turns the uncons... I think I'm gonna use these words correctly, the unconscious into the conscious. It makes you much more conscious of things. It makes you much more self-aware of your behaviors.

Steve Vaughan (02:37)
Right.

Jonathan (02:46)
You know, I fundamentally believe that nobody does anything wrong deliberately in business. I've, I, I can't think of anybody I've ever met who's ever done anything deliberately wrong. make mistakes. Sometimes we make, unfortunately, you know, quite, quite bad, bad mistakes, but it's rarely if ever done deliberately. So, so feedback is a way of making sure that yes, we can improve, but, of course, you know, if you've read the book strength finder, it's, it's, it's also about building on strengths too. So.

Steve Vaughan (02:51)
Mm.

Right.

Jonathan (03:15)
That would be my very simplistic view of what feedback is.

Steve Vaughan (03:18)
Okay, great. And I want to pick up something you said straight away then picking up with Christian. You talked about feedback in a context of bad stuff. I'm trying to avoid using the phrase negative. And I'll come back to that in second. But feedback doesn't always have to be about bad stuff, Christian, does it?

Christian (03:36)
No, it doesn't. think feedback is a gift, like Jonathan said. We should really be grateful for it. I once went to a training class and the trainer there taught us, or one of his things he talked about was you can only really change by the people you meet, the classes you take and the books you read. And I think the people you meet give you feedback. They help you to get better. They help you to

Steve Vaughan (03:56)
of them.

Christian (04:01)
improve your ways. from that point of view, if we look at feedback from that point of view, it is indeed a gift and we should actually always say thank you for your feedback, because it really means something. It also takes a certain courage to give feedback. It's much easier to say everything's fine, honky-dory, you're wonderful, but actually to say, hey, this is an area where you should change or you could do better if...

Steve Vaughan (04:18)
Ha ha ha.

Christian (04:26)
I think this takes some guts and these guts

I believe must be appreciated.

Steve Vaughan (04:31)
And I think it's a really important point is, is recognizing that feedback isn't criticism. It's not people, you know, sort of having a go at you for the sake of it. It's actually meant to be something that helps you improve or get better at what it is you're trying to do really. And it doesn't have to come from your boss, it can come from anybody in the organization, Jonathan , can't it?

Jonathan (04:50)
Yeah. And I have to say, some of the best feedback I've had has been from people that, you know, that weren't leading and managing me. I've had some great feedback from colleagues. Some of it actually being, you know, quite, quite challenging feedback. But, but I think as well, you know, I've had some feedback and I can remember a couple of sort of moments where, you know, I've had some feedback on something I've done really well that actually I didn't know I was doing well.

And I used to see this when I was first a sales manager, you know, I'd watch somebody do something, observe somebody in a sales call, they do something phenomenally well and not realize they've done it well. And of course, if you don't give feedback, there's every possibility, as was the case with me, that actually you could end up, you know, never doing that same thing again, because you weren't conscious of it. you know, that's, for me, has been a really important part of

Steve Vaughan (05:37)
Hmm.

Jonathan (05:43)
of this whole topic of feedback, making people conscious of what they do well, getting them to repeat it. You may observe a behavior which is really that you really want to see people build on, strengthen, repeat. And the only way really of achieving that is by giving feedback. Yeah, there may be some undesirable behaviors we'd love to fix and we'd develop. Again, as I go back to what I said earlier, we don't do anything deliberately wrong.

Steve Vaughan (06:00)
Right.

Jonathan (06:08)
we do things with the best of intention. Sometimes it's just not the right thing at the right time. So again, this feedback is just so helpful. It's so helpful. And I was very lucky. I got great feedback from a range of people at a very young age in my career. It wasn't called feedback, by the way. No one said actually, I'm going to give you some feedback, but they gave me feedback. And I eventually learned to listen.

Steve Vaughan (06:10)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jonathan (06:34)
when I realized it was given with good intention and it wasn't criticism. And I realized, wow, this is to help me, you know, not hinder me, right, or not have a go at me. And that, think it's always the challenge when you're a little immature or new to business that it could be seen as that. So, but anyway, I'll be quiet because I could just carry on talking right the way you talk. As usual. Yeah, thank you very much. absolutely. It's okay. Fair cop.

Steve Vaughan (06:42)
Hmm.

Yes. We'll give you some feedback on that later.

Christian (06:58)
Hahaha!

Steve Vaughan (07:01)
So what Jonathan was getting into there, Christian, really, is sort of things that can go wrong in giving feedback, really. And I'd like to sort of pursue that with you a bit more, really. So what kind of things do people do wrong when they're giving feedback? What are the things, the traps people can fall into?

Christian (07:15)
Yeah, I think it's a very good point. And I'm not even thinking it's so much about how the feedback is given, but also when it is given. And so my wife's a life coach and a leadership coach. So she has lots of clients that are in a change situation and she's involved in all this coaching community. And in the coaching world, they actually talk about feed-forward, not about feedback.

Steve Vaughan (07:25)
Absolutely.

Christian (07:43)
And feed-forward makes it more evident that what I'm about to say is relevant for the future and not relevant for the past. not telling somebody off for what has happened in the past, but I'm giving somebody input for what will happen and should happen in the future. So feed-forward rather than feedback. And what they also do in the coaching community is they ask for permission. So they ask for permission to give some feedback.

Steve Vaughan (08:01)
Little bit.

Christian (08:12)
or some feed-forward that, you know, not every time is a good time to receive difficult information or positive information for that matter. You have to be in the right state of mind. And so permission to give some feedback allows the feedback to say, no, now it's not a good time. I appreciate your thoughts, but I'm not in the right place.

Jonathan (08:12)
Yes.

Steve Vaughan (08:33)
Yeah, that's a point.

Right. That's a really good point. And I'm just thinking about my early sales career, you know, going out in the field with my boss and then you do the core and you get back into the car and you think, right, here he comes, you know, what did I do wrong? And then I got told all the things I did wrong really. And that wasn't great really as an experience. And what I always tried to do as a manager was, you know, let's have time to discuss it, but let's do it at a time that we both feel comfortable doing really. So timing's really important, Jonathan, yeah?

Jonathan (09:02)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I remember it really making an impact with me most of all, when I'd exhibited what you might call an undesirable behavior at a meeting. I should have known better. Again, what happened, I won't reveal it. do occasionally in classes when I'm training this. I do admit to this.

Steve Vaughan (09:19)
Ahaha.

Jonathan (09:22)
What was really good about it was after the meeting my my Manager at the time took took me to one side Just very quietly whispered in my ear as I was leaving the meeting Jonathan, you know just love to have a couple of minutes and he was very specific and said I'm going to give you some feedback and I really and I realized

Steve Vaughan (09:40)
Right.

Jonathan (09:43)
Now the timing was, cannot, you know, is the timing right? Well, the timing is absolutely right in this case, whether I was in the right frame of mind to receive the feedback or not, probably irrelevant. I think he judged it beautifully because, you know, I think whilst the event that occurred and it was a behavior, right? It was nothing about my personality. that's another topic, it?

It was about the behavior that I exhibited. So the timing was perfect. It was fresh in my mind.

Steve Vaughan (10:07)
All right.

Jonathan (10:10)
He could talk about a specific example of this behavior, the impact that it had on all the people around me, he explored how I was feeling about it. But that opening statement is of, I'm going to give you some feedback, was really powerful because there was no confusion then about what this discussion was about. This was about giving me some feedback. at the end of it, I thanked him. Again, look at what I did was not deliberate.

Steve Vaughan (10:13)
.

Right. Right.

Jonathan (10:35)
I got a little bit emotional about something because I cared and I said one or two things that perhaps were just a little bit too strong for that particular environment at the time. was great. But what was really interesting, and sorry, I will let you speak in a moment, Stephen Christian, around about two weeks later, another meeting, okay, these were fairly senior management meetings I was in.

Steve Vaughan (10:37)
and

Right. Yeah.

Jonathan (11:03)
Effectively, the same situation arose again, but this time, having had the feedback, I was able to control my behavior. And do you know what he did at the end of the meeting? He said exactly the same thing again. He said, Jonathan, could I just have a couple of minutes? And he said again, I'd love to give you some feedback. And of course this time, it was to effectively give me feedback on the right behavior that I'd exhibited in those circumstances.

Steve Vaughan (11:14)
Fantastic.

Right.

Jonathan (11:28)
And again, we explored the impact of it, how I felt about it, how other people even felt about it, how he felt about it. And we talked about the future as well. And that was a big changer for me in really understanding the importance of making it clear that you're going to give feedback. And it's absolutely what Christian alluded to. And yes, it was feed forward,

not feedback. Yes.

Steve Vaughan (11:52)
Super example,

really. Yeah. And I think what you demonstrate there is a couple of things, but obviously the timing point of thing, you know, it needs to be at an appropriate time, unless obviously you'd observing something where somebody's doing something dangerous or whatever, forbid. But also flagging that you're going to give some feedback, giving that sort of, you know, we are going to give some feedback now. We're going to talk about, and the word you use a lot there, and I want to explore this with you, Christian, was behavior. We're talking about behaviors. We're not talking about people's

Christian (12:17)
it.

Steve Vaughan (12:20)
thoughts or feelings, we're talking about, you know, even feedback on behaviors. Is that a key point, you think?

Christian (12:26)
Yeah, I think it's always important to separate the observation from the feeling it creates. If somebody upsets me, then when I talk about it, when I give some feedback about it, I should give feedback about the observation of the behaviour of the actual thing that happened.

Steve Vaughan (12:31)
Absolutely.

Christian (12:45)
and then separate it from how that made me feel because otherwise it is like an emotional hit for tat and that's not going to help anybody. So I think separate the observation from the emotion. I would like to maybe go back to another thing I really loved about Jonathan's boss, who is completely unbeknown to me of course, but what he did right was also

Steve Vaughan (12:53)
No, no,

Hahaha.

Christian (13:12)
You you said he took me to a side or he took me to a quiet place. And I think that's also extremely important when you give difficult feedback, it should always be in private. know, criticism, always private, praise, always public. And that's one of the big one-on-ones of leadership. But I think in giving critical feedback, is extremely important that this is not done in front of an audience.

Steve Vaughan (13:41)
really interesting. What are thoughts on that Jonathan?

Jonathan (13:44)
Yeah, I would agree with that very strongly. But then I can just think of this exceptional event that once happened to me and Neil Burns, is now, who's recently, you know, was my co-founder and business partner until very recently, Neil's now retired, as most people know. And I remember something that happened to Neil and I. We were given some developmental feedback.

in public in front of quite a large audience. And I, and at the time, I don't know, I think what I can't specifically say what happened. But all I would say is that I think the person who was managing us at the time judged it perfectly, because he needed to change a behavior that we had that was not conducive to great business, and not conducive to building a team.

Steve Vaughan (14:17)
No.

Jonathan (14:33)
conducive to anything in fact. Some people might even find it amazing today that I even exhibited this behavior, sometimes extreme negativity. But in that one moment, he changed Neil and I for the rest of our lives. I mean, it was beautifully judged. Maybe it took a huge risk. Generally, feedback should be given in private. But look, sometimes there can be exceptional events and that was one of those.

and I'll never forget it. And it changed me forever, right? It changed me forever. all I can do is thank the individual concerned, you know, who did that. It was a big risk on his part, but he clearly knew Neil and I well enough to know that actually we were robust enough to be able to handle it. Whether that makes the final cut in this podcast, I don't know.

Steve Vaughan (15:14)
Interesting. No,

it will. It's a good point. And you got me thinking, I was listening to another podcast the other day, sad to say, an Aston Villa podcast, and they had David Platt on there, the former England player, former Aston Villa player. And they were talking about Graham Taylor, who obviously was a Villa manager for a while, one of the many England managers sadly no longer with us. And he actually gave...

Jonathan (15:28)
yeah.

Steve Vaughan (15:37)
some very, very direct feedback to him in front of everybody else. And not positive feedback in front of the whole team. And then what he told him afterwards is that because you're such a star in the team, needed, and the whole team needed to see that, you know, they'd follow you almost. So I can see why that would be, you know, a scenario. But I think in general terms, we give the sort of challenging feedback in private. How do we make it? So Christian, we are having that conversation.

Jonathan (15:47)
Right. Right.

Yes, we did. Yes.

Steve Vaughan (16:03)
How do we make it, I'm gonna use the word safe and I don't mean avoiding getting physical, but how do we make that conversation a safe conversation that both parties don't feel, well, we don't sort of clam up or get sort of into a challenging frame of mind. What's the best way of approaching that?

Christian (16:20)
Yeah, so I think before it is started, make sure we have some time set aside. Maybe ask or announce that we will give some feedback or ask for permission to give some feedback. And then perhaps describe the observation of the behavior in a factual manner. Describe why this isn't acceptable, maybe from how it makes other people feel, if you're negative, maybe that the...

Steve Vaughan (16:30)
All right.

Christian (16:47)
has a contagious effect or is not conducive to a good team etc. describe how the behaviour makes you feel or makes the team members feel or affects the outcome, the problem. And then state what you need, what you want and ask for some clear changes, make some requests for some clear changes for the future.

And then you're back in the future space and not thinking about the past. But you can really then focus on what are your expectations for the future. That's I think that's how we should do it.

Steve Vaughan (17:13)
Yep.

Got it.

So we've observed a behaviour. You know, we've understood what the behaviour is, the impact of that behaviour. We've discussed the feelings that you have, that other people, even the customer, I say, have as a result of that behaviour. And then we kind of explore a way forward and get buy-in from the other person, really, the other person we're giving feedback to. that what we're saying as a process?

Jonathan (17:45)
Yeah, definitely. I think it's a great way to create that safe space. If it's the first time somebody's ever been given any feedback, I'm sure on their part, if you put yourself in their shoes, there may be a sense of nervousness about it. It may not feel completely safe, but I think the way that you conduct that feedback is everything to making sure that next time around...

you know, it is a safe place. think keeping it solution orientated is critical. think, yeah, Christian's absolutely right about setting expectations. You have a great opportunity to do that. But I think keeping it solution orientated, going in with some of your own solutions to help somebody I think is important. But I think you also have to take a little bit of a risk. you know, if you've struggled with that behavior previously, or a similar behavior, you know, if somebody once gave you some feedback in that area, then maybe you should

consider sharing that with the individual. No one is perfect. And after all of these years in business, I still welcome feedback because there's loads of things that I know that I can do better than I do today. fortunately, several of you inside the organization give me feedback. And I really, really appreciate it because it is the only way we get better. it does feel.

Steve Vaughan (18:43)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jonathan (19:01)
for me always feels really safe because I know you're doing it with the best of intention. You wouldn't raise it unless you wanted to, you you needed to raise it and it works. Certainly at a personal level it works for me, but the top tip for me, keep it solution-orientated, go in with solutions, do it in the right place at the right time. Chris, you made another great point, fact-based, right? Let's focus on the facts and you know, when I think of a big mistake I made once, giving feedback.

I gave feedback on something I'd heard from somebody else, right? Terrible thing to do, right? I'd gotten all sorts of a mess, I had to apologize to the individual. It was really, really embarrassing for me. And I learned a valuable lesson, right? If you're gonna give feedback on an observed behavior, it's probably a good thing that you've observed that behavior yourself and not, yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (19:33)
That's a point.

Christian (19:39)
Hmph.

Steve Vaughan (19:51)
So I think that's a key point. So

we would never start a feedback discussion. Christian will be saying, I've heard someone's told me. No.

Christian (19:59)
I think a total no-go. But what

I love about what Jonathan just said, and I would like to respond to that, giving an own example where he received some feedback, where he made some mistakes, where he received some feedback. I think that's showing vulnerability. And vulnerability as a boss inspires trust with the employees. And I think that's what it's all about. If we trust each other...

then a feedback discussion is to the benefit of both sides involved. And by inspiring trust, by sharing also that the boss is not perfect either and admitting to that and maybe specifically talking about an episode where the behaviour was not good will make it much easier for the employee to accept that criticism. And so I think it's wonderful, Jonathan, what you just said.

Steve Vaughan (20:28)
That's a great point.

I think you make some super points there, both of you. Just going to a slight detour, just popped into my mind really, and something I had quite early on in my senior leadership in the organisation, which at the time I felt was somewhat excruciating, if I can use that phrase, and that's a 360 feedback. What are your experiences of those? And what are your thoughts on them?

Jonathan (20:51)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (21:11)
I should say what 360 feedback is. That's where basically your team members can give, and I think they're anonymous from memory, anonymous feedback on your performance and behaviour as a leader.

Jonathan (21:15)
Yes.

Yes, but

it's often beyond just the team as well. could be, know, if you're in a sales, boy, if you're in a sales role, it could be a customer. It could be somebody in a nearby, you know, in a team that you perhaps work closely with elsewhere in the business. It could be, yes, a manager. It could be a couple of your colleagues in the sales team, for instance, but it's normally, you know, a range of people. I mean, I remember the first time it,

Steve Vaughan (21:35)
Hmm.

Jonathan (21:49)
you know, I had a 360. You know, I just had to, had to, I think the hardest thing was accepting that, goodness me, that's how people see me. Yeah, of course, there were some things in there that I really pleased with and I was really proud of, but there were some things in there and I thought, goodness me, do I really do that? Well, actually, yes, I do. I do exhibit that behavior. There's the evidence. It's not just one person that said it, it's several. And none of the people,

Steve Vaughan (21:59)
Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jonathan (22:17)
you know, had any acts to grind. know, there were no political motivations, you know, with the people that I know, because I'd nominated the people to give the feedback. So, I mean, I love the 360. Goodness me, it's a bit, but I always think you need a facilitator when you initially get the result, okay? You may be sent the result ahead of time.

Steve Vaughan (22:26)
Yeah.

Right.

Jonathan (22:40)
But I think a good facilitator always helps when you sit down to discuss it. So yeah, personally, I love them. They're very, very revealing indeed. If you're a manager thinking about getting one done, I think there has to be an element of maturity with the team before that is truly meaningful. yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know Chris, you wanted to come in and say something then.

Steve Vaughan (22:57)
That's a really good point. So it's not just a chance to get at the boss and have a dig at him. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, go ahead, Christian.

Christian (23:05)
Yeah,

I would like to share an experience maybe actually in my first job as an applications chemist in a let's call it a large Swiss weighing company. narrows it down a bit. I had a boss called George, one of my best bosses I ever had.

Steve Vaughan (23:15)
Now I sit down a bit.

Christian (23:22)
George was a larger than life character, sometimes shouting, sometimes quite emotional, meant really well, really, really encouraged employees, developed employees and created an atmosphere of trust. That atmosphere of trust led to some very open 360 feedback from the team when we had the chance, because that was the appraisal process at this company.

at the time and we would be quite open and give George some meaningful feedback. And he actually got into trouble for it, which I found a huge problem because HR should realize that actually the fact that the team gives very critical feedback is a compliment to the boss, not a criticism. It's actually because it can only happen in an atmosphere of trust.

Steve Vaughan (23:57)
Wow.

Yeah, absolutely.

Christian (24:15)
And luckily we could then talk to the HR people about it and make clear that, you know, we

love George and we thought he was a very, very good boss. And I don't know if he listens to this podcast, but if he does, he was very influential for me in many ways. And I very much appreciated learning from him and this discussion, you know, brings home the importance of feedback, but also of

Steve Vaughan (24:22)
you

Jonathan (24:28)
You

Christian (24:40)
than dealing with the feedback in the right manner.

Steve Vaughan (24:42)
That's the important point,

Jonathan (24:43)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (24:43)
dealing

with it. If you are listening, George, you're welcome to come on the show at any time. So it's a, I mean, I agree with both of you. It's a really, really powerful tool. And the first time I had one, yes, there was some stuff I really was pleased with and some stuff I thought, yeah, if I'm being really...

I think it's got to be used at the right time. think using the wrong organisation, could be very, at the wrong time with the wrong team, it could be almost self-defeating really. It's another useful tool at the right time, at the right place. Final thoughts on both of you on feedback in terms of when it's appropriate, when to do it, anything like that at all, Jonathan, you'd like to wrap up.

Jonathan (25:03)
guys.

Yeah, I think I'd say always follow up. If you've given feedback on something, you've seen somebody do something, you you've seen them do something really well and you want them to repeat that, exhibit that behavior again, do the same thing again, follow up with them, okay? See if they've been able to do that successfully. Maybe you'll get a chance to observe that in the field, either as a colleague or as their manager, for instance. But equally, you know, if it's been some feedback to develop a behavior, you know, follow up with people.

you know, how are they getting on with it? Do they need any help? Do they need any support? They might be struggling to actually implement it successfully. So I would say follow-ups are really important part of it. And I think it helps just create that whole safe place, you know, when it comes to feedback, you know, as a whole. So that would be my sort of final tip, if you like. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (25:47)
Great point.

Super. One from you, Christian.

Christian (26:03)
You're always specific, never general. this, you always behave like this or you never do this. You know, those of us who have a family and kids probably remember using that or similar phrases. And they're not helpful. They don't actually make the kids improve their behavior or clean their tidy up their room or anything like that. So be very specific.

Steve Vaughan (26:09)
Hahaha.

yes.

Christian (26:29)
And as Jonathan says, follow up and then praise if the behaviour improved, you know, and that re-emphasises the whole thing.

Jonathan (26:34)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (26:38)
Yeah, great, great points. Just that final

Jonathan (26:39)
Brilliant.

Steve Vaughan (26:40)
takeaway that feedback doesn't always have to be bad stuff. It could be bad good stuff as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Christian, Jonathan, thank you both very much for your time today. If you are planning to give some feedback to a colleague out there in the field, dear listener, then I hope that's been useful for you. If you'd like to give us some feedback, we'd love to have some from you. You can contact any of us through our LinkedIn accounts or our emails if you know us personally.

Jonathan (26:44)
correct. Definitely. Yes.

Steve Vaughan (27:06)
There is an email account for the show. It's just podcast at georgejames-training.com. That's podcast at georgejames-training.com. Devogate also, you can give us a review if you use Apple or Spotify as your podcast provider, then you can leave us a review, ideally a five-star review if you could. It helps in lots of weird and wonderful ways for us. And Devogate also says to subscribe to the show so it appears in your inbox every two weeks.

I'll be back again with another podcast in a couple of weeks time with two more of my colleagues. In the meantime, happy selling out there and we'll talk to you soon.

Christian (27:42)
Thank you.

Jonathan (27:43)
Thank you.