What Laboratory Buyers REALLY want

In this episode of The Luxury of Choice, host Steve Vaughan and guests Christian Walter and Jonathan Slasinski discuss the essential needs and expectations of customers in the laboratory equipment sector. They explore the importance of understanding customer workflows, the value of face-to-face interactions in building trust, and the role of emotional intelligence in sales. The conversation emphasizes the need for salespeople to prioritize customer needs over upselling and to foster long-term relationships based on reliability and support.

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche, Jayne Green and Jonathan Slasinski are Sales Trainers from george james ltd. You can email the show at: Podcast@georgejames-training.com

The trainers on LinkedIn:

Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/

Jonathan Slasinski https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-slasinski-449a655/

george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

 Steve: [00:00:00] Hello again and welcome to the Luxury of Choice A B2B Sounds and Business Podcast, brought to you by the training team of George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm a member of the training team here, and I'm also the producer and host of this podcast, and today I have two of my colleagues from the training team with me, Christian Walter and Jonathan's Slasinski

Jonathan: Very good, Steve. 

 Steve: So Christian, you are in Switzerland. I'm here in the uk. It's pretty chilly here. I guess it is where you are as well. Jonathan's loving the Southern California temperature. Probably still right now at the moment. 

Jonathan: A little, but we have some rain though, so it's, oh yeah, it's rain.

Jonathan: We've had a few days of rain, which is a little strange for us down here and in Southern California. So we. We had the 

Christian: first snowfall today. 

 Steve: Oh, you did? Cool. And I always, 

Christian: always loved that, you know, I'm still a little child when it comes to snow. So we had the, A dusting. A dusting, not much more, but it was lovely.

 Steve: we had snow in places in the UK only a little bit. It always amazes me that we always seem to be surprised when it snows here in Britain, considering we're in a northern hemisphere, [00:01:00] Northern latitude. Country, you know, we seem a bit surprised. Oh, it snowed like, like it's not supposed to in November.

 Steve: But no doubt if we have a serious snow forward to bring the country to its knees like it normally does. But hopefully that's, certainly not before Christmas anyway. Anyway, let's not talk about the weather too much. Let's get on with today's topics. So what I wanted to explore today really is what do our customers want?

 Steve: And particularly what do people who are buying laboratory equipment, consumables, what do they really want? And we can take that in two ways as whether it's a person actually using the equipment or if it's somebody different, somebody actually placing the order or both really. So when we look at what our customers really want from us as a supplier, you know, what would you take us at like a first headline view, Christian, really.

 Steve: So, you know, we're supplying equipment, consumables to a laboratory. What is it that those people who are buying those things, what are they looking for? 

Christian: I think what they really want is for us to take the time to [00:02:00] understand their problems and their workflows. 

 Steve: Okay. And 

Christian: they don't want us to step in and start selling as if there was no tomorrow.

Christian: They don't want us to kind of rob our hands together and be Prince Charming. That's not what they're looking for. They're actually looking for somebody who takes. The pain to understand what their challenges are and what their processes are. And I think that's the most important part, 

 Steve: as opposed to just turning up and pitching product.

 Steve: Jonathan, in that case. 

Jonathan: Yeah, I think Christian really gets to the point of it's about understanding their needs, right? What is someone who's gonna be using some kind of equipment? Hey, does somebody understand really what I want? 

Jonathan: I think that these buyers really want something that's gonna support their science, help them with their work, and just not complicate it. Right? There's so many products that get thrown out. There's so many things that get tossed at them. What really works for them and what's not gonna complicate their lives.

Jonathan: Right. They're humans after all right? They want something that's [00:03:00] gonna be seamless, something that's gonna kind of help them out. Christian hits it, right? The first thing is kind of understanding what those needs are, and then being able to provide them with that kind of seamless solution.

Jonathan: in my experience it's always been, Hey, what can work best for me and my work at the lab? Gotta understand that need first, and then be able to provide it for them. 

Christian: I like the word seamless Johnson. Yeah, Because seamless means it's not an isolated piece of kit. It fits into an overall workflow.

Christian: It matters to their whatever task they're doing in a particular lab. And we should never think that our instrument. Is the bee's knees, and the most important thing in a customer's daily routine, it just may be a small puzzle. And how does it fit in and how can we make it seamless? I love that.

Christian: What I used make it easy for them. Yeah. 

Jonathan: what kind of, I looked for a lot of times when the lab is compliments, right? How can what am I selling? Complimenting kind of what's already in their lab or the work that they need to do. So again, it doesn't always have to be this great, [00:04:00] shiny, spectacular thing on the hill.

Jonathan: It really just needs to fit well with kind of what they're doing. And I think that's, in my experience, that's really what the scientific buyer wants. Is my work gonna get done? You know, is and is it gonna be kind of a very seamless and less complicated? 

 Steve: Mm-hmm. And I think this is the reason why, we encourage salespeople to make sales calls face to face as opposed to over the technology we're using 

 Steve: Because it's very difficult to do that over zoom. you can have a nice conversation but you can't really get into. What it is that they're doing without actually having a look and seeing what they're doing if I'm the person in the lab using the equipment, yes.

 Steve: I need people to understand my workflow and hopefully help me, you know, improve my workflow, optimize my workflow, What other things do you think would be relevant for, let's say, a head of lab who's buying some new technology?

 Steve: What, what other the things would they be very keen to understand from us as a supplier? 

Jonathan: Yeah, I think kind of reliability and support. You know, what, what are they gonna get as they start utilizing this instrument or as they start utilizing these kind of reagents, what's the, the support I'm [00:05:00] gonna get?

Jonathan: Is it reliable? is it working and doing what the sales rep had said. I think those are the big things that happen once you start getting your product into these people, it's like, okay, well now what's gonna happen after I start using it?

Jonathan: where are you as a company to support me and make sure that this is reliable and fitting into those workflows that we talked about before. 

 Steve: Yeah, absolutely. 

Christian: Yes. so I want to go back quickly to one thing. No, please do. You said about face-to-face because I believe it's extremely relevant as much as we are interested to see the customer face to face, because then we can better understand their needs.

Christian: I think the customer must also have a vital interest of meeting us face to face because it's all about trust, isn't it? And what Jonathan just said about reliability and support, and you never know. Ahead of time whether a particular piece of kit will work. But you deal with the people and you build an image in your head, whether these are reliable, trustworthy [00:06:00] people.

Christian: And so I believe this kind of trust is best established in a face-to-face conversation. Absolutely, 

 Steve: absolutely. 

Christian: were a customer, I would, I would really try and get a feel for the people behind the company. Because only, you know, company attracts the people it deserves. So the good people, 

Christian: Will stick with good companies. 

Jonathan: So it's when we started talking about qualifying them and understanding their needs, you know, for me, going into the lab was the best thing that I can do. 'cause you can see what equipment was there, right?

Jonathan: If you're on a Zoom call sometimes. Yeah, how do you know what, what kind of equipment they're using or, or what's going on? and just being able to walk around the lab would open up so much of me to kind of start asking questions about. so I think you're a hundred percent right about qualifying, getting these face-to-face, and then what can we build off of that based on kind of what they're gonna be looking for from us?

 Steve: It's so important. I did some training this week for a customer and I got a chance to look around their demo lab for. half an hour, and I never [00:07:00] go into labs these days and I was quite excited, really? You know, just, oh, you've got one of those and I haven't seen one for ages. And, yeah. it's the best thing you can do, really.

 Steve: and of course, if we're selling to scientists, you know, scientists are the most skeptical people on earth. and you know, I think it's important that we don't just use words. salespeople don't go to customers and say, our quality's a bit average. You know, we all say our quality's good, our support's good.

 Steve: You know, our backup's good. Everybody's gotta say that, but it's easy to use. Yeah. Nobody says as is a bit difficult. We as is, as is quite hard to use. I wouldn't buy ours. I mean, we all say these phrases so clearly. If you're selling to a scientist, you gotta better prove it, right? Yeah.

 Steve: Do you agree? Yeah. 

Christian: Yeah. I was just thinking about a really good way of proving this And that is, you know, if there is an element of co-creation, Particularly if it's a bit more sophisticated piece of kit, you know, it's a next generation sequencer or it's a liquid chromatography, mass spec system 

Christian: where there are some workflow [00:08:00] elements, maybe some particular demands, maybe some analysis that require a bit of understanding, we can then co-create the solution. And I think that, then approaches what the customer really wants because he can shape what they get. And I think that really helps us to overcome the question marks about ease of use and so on.

 Steve: Jonathan. 

Jonathan: Yeah, kind of just similar, similar kind of what Christian was saying. You know, I think it's. just making sure that we're all aligned with what they're thinking of and what their needs are. Mm-hmm. 

 Steve: So if I'm, running a quality control lab or something like that, things that I'm gonna want is obviously the performance of the product, but also guaranteed uptime.

 Steve: So, as you say, the service capability, I always do something like carrying data, like first time fix rate from my service team, to prove how quickly we can fix things if things do go wrong. And of course. the ability to respond quickly, and that's where service contracts add value.

 Steve: What about if I'm the person writing the order out now, so, you know, the purchasing person as opposed to the guy in, in the lab. [00:09:00] What are they looking for? What are they looking for from us as, as salespeople? Christian 

Christian: discount. 

 Steve: Besides discount, 

Christian: You know, it's part of their job and we should look at it, like that.

Christian: It's, if you're a purchaser, that's part of your job. you need to get the best price possible, but I think there's a lot more they want as well, because they want, to deal with a company that has a good future. I think that's very important. they are also interested in a long term relationship.

Christian: absolutely. They want honesty. Yeah, because I think they've seen it all. they come across lots of excuses and I'm, if I were a procurement person, I'd much rather have a sales guy telling me, Hey, sorry, we can't do that then. Yes, yes, yes. And it doesn't happen in the end.

 Steve: Absolutely, absolutely. And I always use the example, if I was a, you know, purchasing manager of say a, I dunno, car factory And I. ordered a part that was cheap but not good enough for the job, you know, that [00:10:00] I could put a whole car factory on stop, or even worse, you know, cause accidents and things.

 Steve: So it's not just about the price, Jonathan, is it, you know, there's other things that purchasing people have to think about as well. 

Jonathan: Yeah, I think that the purchaser role takes a slightly different kind of spin in the states versus kind of Europe and the uk. Okay. Tell me more. But I will say that.

Jonathan: You know, the purchaser is looking for competence, right? they have a set of, maybe they need some T's and C's, maybe they need to understand kind of where the pricing is coming from, and they're just looking to you to be efficient, competent, reply to them and, just help them out and, assuage a sale.

Jonathan: I should say, you know, in my experience, the sale was kind of done either at that. You know, the, the department level or, or the PI level or the, the user level. And then when it got to purchasing, it was more about the, the paperwork and getting kind of things through, which is I think some of the, the differences that, that you all see, you know, in, in Europe and, and in the uk.

Jonathan: But again, to me it comes down to what do they want? They want competency, right? They want someone who's gonna be [00:11:00] able to, again, just like we're addressing the user's needs, what's the purchaser's needs? What are, what are they looking for, and how can you really be, you know, kind of there as efficiently as possible.

Jonathan: They're trying to get these things through, right? 

 Steve: to make their life easy? 

Jonathan: Yeah, exactly 

 Steve: is the key point here, really. I've worked for companies in the past where getting the technical decision to go our way was the easy bit. Getting the customer to agree to what were quite stringent.

 Steve: Ts and Cs from our side was the hard bit really. and I'm not saying we should just give in and just accept whatever the customer wants in terms of Ts and Cs, but I guess there's no reason why we can't have a conversation about those things, which is Ts and Cs early on, rather than leaving it to some kind of bun fight after the, the technical decision has gone our way.

 Steve: Because if we're in front of a purchasing person, Christian, then we've won the deal. You know, the technical decision is to go our way nine times outta 10. Really? I would think, unless you think otherwise. 

Christian: Yeah. No, I tend to agree with that. I've been doing quite a lot of work recently on emotions and, 

Christian: How important emotions are for [00:12:00] rational decision making and I believe that that is true for the lab manager taking a decision. We call it the technical decision. I don't think it's a technical decision. It's an emotional decision with some rational components. And then it's also true for the purchasing guy because the purchasing guy could potentially veto a decision.

Christian: And that is also a problem. So again, it's an emotional decision also for the purchasing guy. And we need to connect with both these decision makers on an emotional level. And how do we do that? I believe it's about how we make them feel, how we make them feel about ourselves, about our product, about our company.

Christian: Do we tell a good tale? Do we smile a good smile? And do we make them feel at ease? And I think if we can do that, then they will probably think, we are getting what we want from them. But it's a lot about emotions and not [00:13:00] just rationale. 

 Steve: I totally agree. And Jonathan, I know that you are very interested in using emotions in business, so what are your thoughts on that?

Jonathan: Yeah, I think, the point is exactly right. So we're humans, right? We are emotional beings, And, when we look at this, if we put into an EQ context, This is actually relationship management, which is that skill, So relationship management. There could be two, three parties, whatever it is.

Jonathan: And each party has a need, they have a goal that they're trying to get to. So you have your need. They have their need. It's about working together to figure out how do we both work together through this? and identifying kind of that. Now you don't have to be best friends with these people, but you have to realize 

Jonathan: So there's things that they're trying to get through, right? There's things that you're trying to get through. And the other component to it is kind of what Christian was talking about was, was just social awareness, recognizing kind of the state that they're in, right? Are they upset? Are they happy? how are they feeling about us?

Jonathan: And then of course, taking kind of our emotions into account, you know, as we deal with that to build this relationship and make sure that we get to kind [00:14:00] of that common goal that we have. 

 Steve: So how important is empathy in doing that? 

Jonathan: I think it's huge, right? I think empathy in sales is humongous, right?

Jonathan: How do you put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to figure out kind of what. You know what's going on with them, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, you could, talk to a customer one day who maybe something happened at home in the morning, right as they were going on. Maybe they got into, you know, a fight with a sibling or a partner or something, right?

Jonathan: So their emotional state isn't that great, and here you are trying to sell them something and maybe it's just not the best kind of time for that conversation. I think that kind of empathy is huge for a sales rep to have, to be able to just recognize. Hey, maybe this isn't the right time for this, you know?

Jonathan: But I also think it kind of falls back to what Christian was saying about how have you built these relationships? Have you built some of the trust and things like that that you really want to see out of your customers? 

 Steve: And trust isn't something you can just instantly start with is that you don't, you can't have instant trust.

 Steve: I think when you start doing business with an individual in the company, there's some degree of assumed [00:15:00] trust, but that deep seated trust only comes with time. But it also can take a second to destroy, can't it guys? 

Jonathan: Big time. Yeah. I mean, I go back to kind of my Bio-Rad days when I was selling gels and PCR reagents, walking, you know, hall, hall.

Jonathan: And I would always have a green BioRad shirt on. and I was always at this one account in Baltimore every Wednesday, right? So they knew me as the green shirt guy. they knew on Wednesdays, I would be there. Right. So it's again, kinda like, what do customers want? Customers, they're humans. They want consistency.

Jonathan: they want to know that someone's gonna be there. And it was the fact that over years of being there, every Wednesday you build these relationships, you build this trust that they know you're gonna be there where they can kind of come to you, call you on things like that. 

Jonathan: And it's about kind of filling that need of course they want products that are gonna work for their workflows, can help them with their science. But there is a human component to it too, which is, oh cool, this guy's really here all the time supporting me.

Jonathan: He's gonna be able to address my needs. Take me for a coffee if we want to go get a coffee. and I think that's the other element is not only the [00:16:00] workflow and seamlessness, it's the human side of. What customers want. 

 Steve: So Christian, what are your thoughts about the importance of trust when working with both lab and purchasing people? 

Christian: It's paramount. It's super important. people buy from people and not companies from companies. trust works on both levels. Trust works on the people level, and trust works on the company level, and we have to work on both.

Christian: We have to try and convince our customers that we are trustworthy, that our company's trustworthy, and we can do that with a variety of little things. What we can't do is tell them, Hey, you should do business with us because we are trustworthy. I think that's the wrong approach. 

 Steve: Yeah. Now, as I say, nobody goes to companies and say, we're a bit shady.

 Steve: Do they? 

Jonathan: Well, I think that, I think there's some inherent trust built in the brands, right? So when you look at. You know, the goodwill of a brand or, or the brand loyalty that it has. I mean, I can remember starting in certain sales [00:17:00] roles and just having customers kind of welcome me because of the brand and the trust that they've built.

Jonathan: But when we talk about that human to human connection, that's the thing that builds kind of over time. And I think what we were talking about just a little bit ago is like, sure, customers, especially scientists, they wanted something that works for their science, that fits into their workflow, seamless.

Jonathan: But at the end of the day, they're also human, right? So they're gonna buy from another human. Mm-hmm. That connects with them where they feel trustworthy, they know they can get kind of the support, and they know that they're gonna be able to have someone who kind of goes that extra distance. You know, and it's something that, again, I've always found in my career is by being able to kind of be that person for customers.

Jonathan: Yeah. You know, even not having the best products in the world. Mm-hmm. They would usually come back to me for things that they know are gonna work within their lab in their scientific setting. 

 Steve: There's a, a, a sales person I follow on LinkedIn and she's very active on LinkedIn and her name's Jessica. I think from [00:18:00] memory, if you listen to this, Jessica, please.

 Steve: Come back and she calls herself the antibody queen of the north. She's based in the north of England and I always like her feeds. And one of the things she put quite recently on there was, have I done the right thing? I told my customer to buy from my competitor. 

Christian: wonderful. I like it. 

 Steve: What do you think, Jonathan? 

Jonathan: I love that it's something that I've done all throughout my career, right? if it's not the best fit. Hey, I think these are a few other options. The fact that you can actually give them other options too. Again, what that does is it builds credibility, but it also starts to build trust that the person that I'm talking to actually has my interests in mind, not necessarily their interests.

Jonathan: I think obviously we want to try to sell our products as much as possible. When we do have that time. It needs to be, Hey, I think that these are some other options for you. And then, hey, I also know the rep. Happy to connect you with 'em. I think that's the kind of stuff that really proves your value, shows your credibility, [00:19:00] and then again, as Christian was kind of this trust conversation we're having really kind of starts to dial up that trust level.

Jonathan:

 Steve: Why did you like it, Christian? 

Christian: So I believe we should always sell what the customer needs, not what we want to sell. Absolutely. in extreme cases, this may actually be a competitor's solution. I've always been very skeptical about upselling. 

 Steve: Okay. Tell me more. 

Christian: Well, you know, companies always have different levels and different models and, you know, you know it from the car industry. You can upsell, you can get. Free whatever alloy wheels or super GT stripes or, and that's fine as long as this is what the customer wants. But as soon as we are actually trying to get more out of the customer, then they need, mm, it's abusive.

Christian: And abusive relationship is not sustainable. So I'd rather sell them a [00:20:00] cheap piece of kit if it's sufficient for their needs. 

 Steve: Yeah, 

Christian: make sure they stay happy with that, 

 Steve: That's a great point. It's treating people like you'd wanna be treated yourself really, isn't it really?

 Steve: Like you say, if you went into a car showroom and somebody's trying to say you're at top of the range, but your budget is, you know, the entry level, then you know, be realistic. Be be able to un to understand that. Really. I was thinking while you were talking also about many times that I've been into, a lab.

 Steve: And walk round a lab with a, with a customer. And I've seen something on the bench and it looked quite shiny and new, but it was also covered in a layer of dust. And I would say, what is that you got there? You know? And the customer say, I don't know. Somebody bought it before me. We bought it three years ago.

 Steve: Can you think of scenarios like that, guys? 

Jonathan: It happens. Oh yeah. I mean. To me, it go, goes back to both of those things, right? Just seeing the things that kind of, you know, we used to call 'em the door stopper. Oh, that's gonna be, oh, I love it. Hold the door opener.

Jonathan: But it's also about how many times I've been in customers in their labs and they've just told me, we just, [00:21:00] we have all the stuff we don't need. Right. Either someone or even they were, were sold, Hey, you need this. And then it, it kind of found out they didn't really need it, right? Mm-hmm. And I kind of like what Christian was saying about, figure that out, get them kind of just what they need, right.

Jonathan: And that's really gonna provide that base of, okay, cool, this works seamless. It fits into my workflow. scientists also have, an eye for the salesy stuff. There's plenty of times I've walked into a lab where they're like, I don't wanna be sold. because people do go in and they just do the salesman stuff on them.

 Steve: We just, we'll turn up a pitch product 

Christian: Yeah. So I have another thing which kind of fits to this discussion. Go for it. I totally disagree with salespeople quoting options. So if you quote options as a salesperson to a customer, you obviously haven't done a good enough job to find out what the customer really needs.

Christian: and it goes a little bit along with the upselling. you quote [00:22:00] something cheap and cheerful and then you quote something a bit more pricey. and of course you're hoping that they go for the pricey version, but. If the cheap and cheerful is good enough, then that's what you should stick with.

Christian: and that's what you should, convince the customers because then you have credibility. And I think credibility in this business is extremely important and it's trust, you know, then you get trust. 

 Steve: Absolutely. Yeah. When we do these podcasts of topics, obviously rearrange 'cause we don't talk about a topic in isolation.

 Steve: It's all linked to the sales process. And, and, and you know what we do as salespeople? What was springing into my mind while you were talking then Christian, is the importance of qualification again, really. And fully qualifying the customer's needs. As a sales manager, when I, I'd get a quote, approval from one of my sales team, then I'd get version two, and then when we got to version three, I would send it back and say, go back and find out what the customer really wants, because clearly they don't know, or they dunno what the budget is, they dunno what the technical need is, and we just lobby in [00:23:00] quotes, hoping that the customer's gonna like them.

Jonathan: I will play a little devil's advocate here though. 

 Steve: it. 

Jonathan: On the flip side of it is sometimes customers want optionality. Right? Okay. You know, we can figure out what they need. This is what you need, but these are some other options that could potentially, that can also meet your needs with some maybe bells and whistles that could be down the line, could be in the future.

Jonathan: And again, I think it's a very human thing to want options, right? So. again, I love Christian kind where you're saying like, let, let's make sure we qualify them and figure out what they need and provide them that, but I, well, maybe their need is still have folks. There are sometimes where it's, the options are.

 Steve: Yeah, my need is to have various different options so I can go, I guess it's, you know, the old three quotes. I need three quotes from my purchasing people. I guess potentially we could supply all three quotes, different versions. and I've done that before. Now I've got a friendly distributor to quote my product.

 Steve: You know, from through them, as opposed to, from me as well, just to give the customer options. What, as a final wrap up [00:24:00] guys, what are the things you think our customers read, whether they're technical buyers or lab buyers? What kind of thing do you think our customers need, if we've missed anything at all?

Christian: Well, I think they need to, they need to get us, they need to be efficiently treated, that they need to be not messed about. They need to have a reliability in interactions. If they have a question, they need to get a good answer. So there's a lot of basic humanity that, needs to happen and I think these are maybe even more important than doing a superb.

Christian: Pitch or, knowing every little detail about the particularly complicated analytical instrument, I think it's more important to be responsive and focused and precise and timely. 

 Steve: Jonathan, your final thoughts on this? 

Jonathan: Yeah, just again, I think at the base, right? You know, our customers want something that supports their science, and doesn't complicate things. It just kind of makes their lives easier. I think that's also a very human thing. 'cause then the flip side to that is not only providing them with [00:25:00] something that meets their needs.

Jonathan: Then it becomes that human side, Where They don't want risk, they don't want hassles. They wanna make sure someone's there to support them They wanna make sure somebody understands them and some of their pain points that are going through. So you have the scientific basis, let's get there.

Jonathan: And then let's also do the kind of human things, which is, building these connections and showing them that by going with us, you're gonna reduce your risk. I'm here to support you. We're gonna have. the ability to, help you out with your experiments moving forward. 

 Steve: Absolutely.

 Steve: Jonathan Christian, thanks very much for your thoughts on that. So, if you listen to this, dear listener, make sure you build that trust with your customer and really ask them what is it you really want? You know, ask that question. You never know. They might even tell you if you have enjoyed this episode.

 Steve: Then don't forget to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app and also we would love a review and you can review us on either the Apple Podcast app or Spotify now, and we would love a five star review if you have the time. We'd be very, very grateful. As always, we're very interested. If you've got any topics you'd like us to raise, , you can email the show at podcast at George James hyphen training.com.[00:26:00]

 Steve: We'll be back again in a couple of weeks time with another show.