Imposter Syndrome in Technical B2B Sales

Most salespeople and leaders face Imposter Syndrome in sales - the feeling of self doubt and of being " a fraud". In this episode, host Steve Vaughan is joined by fellow George James trainer Jonathan Cooper and special guest Rupa Ark, a Senior Sales Director from Azenta Life Sciences. The panel discuss why salespeople can suffer from Imposter Syndrome, how to cope with it, and why it shows you care about your job and the customer. 

Rupa Ark on LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupaark/

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche,  Jayne Green  and Jonathan Slasinski are Sales Trainers from george james ltd.  You can email the show at:  Podcast@georgejames-training.com

 The trainers on LinkedIn:

 Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/

Jonathan Slasinski https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-slasinski-449a655/

george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:00.703)
Hello again and welcome to the Luxury of Choice, a B2B technical sales and business podcast brought to you by the training team with George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm one of the trainers here at George James and I'm also the host and producer of this podcast. And I'm here today with two guests to look at today's topic. First of all, I've got a colleague from George James, owner and founder of George James, Jonathan Cooper. Jonathan, how are you? You haven't been on the pod for while. How are you doing?

Jonathan (00:26.934)
No, I know I've done well to avoid it. I'm very well indeed, thank you. yeah, looking forward to, I love doing these. So yeah, looking forward to it. But yeah, all going well. We've had a great start to the year. So hey, I'm gonna be happy, aren't I?

Steve Vaughan (00:29.631)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Steve Vaughan (00:35.893)
I know you do really.

Steve Vaughan (00:43.701)
Absolutely, as we all are. I'm also delighted to welcome a guest and it's somebody who I've known for many years. We've worked together in a couple of companies. We've also done business together here at George James as well. And somebody who's very, very active on LinkedIn. So at the end of this podcast, make sure you go and check her out. Her name's Rupa Ark Rupa, how are you?

Rupa Ark (00:44.185)
you

Rupa Ark (01:07.045)
very well, thank you, Steve. It's good to be here.

Steve Vaughan (01:09.865)
Great to have you here. thanks for coming on the pod. Do you want to just briefly introduce yourself and what it is that you do right now?

Rupa Ark (01:17.659)
Absolutely. So I'm Rupa Ark I am currently working for a company called Azenta Life Sciences. So Azenta Life Sciences is a company that provides sample management solutions, automated sample management solutions. And I'm the senior director for the EMEA consumables and instruments business. I have 25 team members in sales, channel sales, inside sales, three managers reporting in to me.

And yeah, it's exciting times to be in the life sciences industry.

Steve Vaughan (01:51.957)
It's a great business. We've done some work together recently and it's a great team and a great business. it's great to have you here. We wanted to get you on the podcast for quite a while. So thank you so much for doing it. Yeah. And I know you want to do your own podcast at some stage as well. So here's a chance to see behind the scenes of this. Inside Baseball, I think, is the sort of what they call the inside of podcasting. It's like an industry joke anyway. We'll move on from that. Thank you.

Rupa Ark (01:58.533)
Thank you. I know you finally got me. Thank you. Absolutely.

Great.

Rupa Ark (02:15.003)
They're great podcasts. I've been following your podcasts and listen to them every week. So yeah, they're great podcasts.

Jonathan (02:16.12)
Good job.

Steve Vaughan (02:20.058)
That's very kind. We'll send the check later. So today's topic is one I think is something that we can all relate to at some stage. And I know it's one that I've experienced many times throughout my career, including even into my current role. And that is imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome, it's obviously specifically within sales. I looked up a definition of imposter syndrome.

Rupa Ark (02:23.419)
you

Rupa Ark (02:46.181)
Thank

Steve Vaughan (02:47.412)
using a well-known AI app. So it may or may not be accurate, but this is what I've got anyway. look, this is, this is a kind of a starter for 10 guys. So it says the imposter syndrome is the persistent feeling that your success, competence or achievements are somehow undeserved despite evidence that you're capable and performing well. I actually quite like that. think that's quite a good definition of what imposter syndrome is, but now moving on.

Jonathan (02:47.5)
Wow, great.

Rupa Ark (02:49.915)
you

Jonathan (02:51.108)
You

Rupa Ark (02:56.656)
Yeah.

Jonathan (03:10.488)
Thank you.

Steve Vaughan (03:17.104)
forward to think about people listening to the podcast, people in sales, people out there day in, day out selling, you know, laboratory precision, life science, all that kind of stuff. How does that actually translate to the, know, the people doing the job right now? People listen to this podcast who I'm sure from time to time do experience imposter syndrome. How does that manifest itself? Do think guys, what's your thoughts on that?

Rupa Ark (03:22.011)
you

Rupa Ark (03:43.067)
I think before I answer that question, what I was going to ask you, as you describing, giving that definition, was going to say, imposter syndrome doesn't disappear with experience. I'm 25 years in, plus years. It evolves. And it evolves in a way that you often sort of show up in a different times. I'm having imposter syndrome as I am talking to you here. Yeah, right?

Steve Vaughan (03:54.152)
That's a great point.

Steve Vaughan (04:04.637)
OK.

Steve Vaughan (04:08.18)
I do every day on the podcast.

Rupa Ark (04:11.897)
But what it is, it shows you're growing, right? So I think I just, I think it really is something I mean, I in my coaching and mentoring, we talk about this. So I just wanted to sort of start by saying that and to answer to your question, how it shows up and what it looks like in sales. And in preparation for this podcast, I was looking back at my own career over the 25 years is we sell very technical products to highly

Steve Vaughan (04:22.28)
That's a great point. Thank you for doing that.

Steve Vaughan (04:35.572)
Sure.

Rupa Ark (04:41.421)
expert is in the industry, right? At the life sciences. You could be in front of a postdoc, a PhD qualified, PIs, CEOs of the companies, and you're selling them highly technical products and you're talking to highly technical people. And that's where, so one area where it shows up, right? That is probably from the life sciences sales perspective.

Steve Vaughan (04:43.912)
Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan (04:44.162)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:53.577)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (05:05.022)
Sure. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good point. Yeah, I mean, the person we're selling to will always be more knowledgeable about their film than we were, will be, you know, as we touch on actually on our last part. Jonathan, what's your views on how imposter syndrome turns up?

Rupa Ark (05:11.335)
yeah.

Rupa Ark (05:16.323)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jonathan (05:25.224)
well, I think I'll come into this discussion by actually just picking up something Rupa just said, which is, if you suffer from it, it shows you're growing. one thing I've noticed about imposter syndrome is that, and Rupa, you'll be glad to hear this, and anyone who's suffering from it. My observation would simply be the people that I've seen, who suffered from it have always been high performers. Strangely. Okay.

Steve Vaughan (05:31.922)
Okay.

Steve Vaughan (05:36.468)
That's super pointless now.

Rupa Ark (05:53.179)
Yep. Yep.

Jonathan (05:55.058)
you know, and I think that goes with, know, and one of the reasons of course, they're high performers is they're constantly looking for ways to grow. it's a, you know, really, it's really interesting. when Steve asked me to participate in this, I was like, you know, I started thinking about my life and my history in this business and all of the people that I've met and, know, and I, and I was just running through the really high achievers that I've met.

Rupa Ark (06:02.843)
Absolutely.

Rupa Ark (06:16.741)
Yeah.

Jonathan (06:22.002)
and I've worked very closely with and they all, to some extent, sometimes suffer from it. Now, of course, I'd love to put myself in that category, right? But I leave the listener to judge where I am. But I have to say I have suffered from it a couple of times. I think when I was started in selling, I was so probably overconfident.

Rupa Ark (06:33.051)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (06:33.471)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Rupa Ark (06:42.085)
Ugh.

Rupa Ark (06:50.235)
Mm.

Jonathan (06:50.382)
and so enthusiastic about what I was doing and love what I was doing, there was just this naivety. I don't think I really realized the people I was meeting. And I always remember my very, very first sales call alone. I went to the Institute of Neurology in London and met one of the world's leading researchers at the time. And I met just this...

Rupa Ark (07:05.711)
Yeah.

Jonathan (07:16.494)
And I wasn't in, I didn't feel intimidated because you if you suffer from imposter syndrome, you can feel intimidated. But I remember walking in to see this lady and she was amazing. And she said to the first thing she spoke before I did. And she said, you look awfully, awfully young. How long have you been doing this job for? And I said, well, of course I said, actually you're the, my very first sales call. And she said, well,

Rupa Ark (07:28.283)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (07:35.832)
That must have been a long time ago.

Jonathan (07:46.114)
You're very lucky because I'm looking to buy two instruments. So that's another issue.

Rupa Ark (07:47.439)
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, but I think you're right there. mean, you said something there that it's that confidence versus competence, right? So you can be really, really competent person, you still have feel like an imposter, right? And, you know, so I think, you know, competence is what you know, and

Steve Vaughan (07:49.531)
wow.

Steve Vaughan (08:00.573)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (08:10.034)
Yeah.

Jonathan (08:11.18)
Yeah, that's right. Yep.

Rupa Ark (08:17.273)
And confidence is how you show up and how you apply. So in your case, you were showing up, Jonathan, you know, and then what the customer said to you make you feel okay, I'm in the right place, I'm okay here, I'm going to be all right. So I think that's really, really important. And again, we were talking about where does it show up? And again, giving the example of the life sciences industry, you sometimes taking off a new product. And when a new product comes out, you've got to be ready.

Steve Vaughan (08:20.403)
Great point.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (08:29.722)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (08:46.319)
You get all the training and you're going and have to do a demo and you prepare. you know, we'll come on to probably in a minute about how to address your imposter syndrome. But again, it's that preparation and then getting that confidence from preparing well. But yeah, I mean, as if I may share another example. Even now, I'm saying, you know, I do coaching and mentoring and we talk a lot about and when I tell

Jonathan (08:49.198)
Yes.

Steve Vaughan (09:01.747)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (09:06.749)
Please.

Rupa Ark (09:15.481)
my mentees that I have still not as much as I used to. And I think that comes with experience. But you still I will go into a meeting now and I look around the room and I will say, my God, you know, OK, am I prepared? Have I got everything right? You do have that sort of knot in your tummy. Is that nervousness bit of imposter syndrome? Am I in the right room? I still sometimes have that question. Am I in the right room? And so, yeah.

Jonathan (09:20.174)
you

Jonathan (09:34.382)
That's right.

Jonathan (09:44.846)
That's right. Yeah. I've suffered from it too in relatively recent times despite, know, a sales career now more than 40 years, I've walked into a conference room where, you know, and let's face it, you know, I've, you know, there's been a huge number of people, you

Rupa Ark (09:44.933)
So I think, Jonathan, what you're describing is very similar.

Steve Vaughan (09:48.467)
I

Rupa Ark (09:57.787)
You

Jonathan (10:11.918)
quite significant number of people there. mean, well over 100, 200 people in some occasions or more. And here I am sort of leading the training at this sales conference. And I absolutely feel like an imposter. Obviously I'm not gonna name any names, otherwise that might make my negotiation position.

Rupa Ark (10:18.733)
Mm.

Rupa Ark (10:24.378)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (10:28.317)
Yeah, completely.

Rupa Ark (10:31.215)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely right. And I was having a conversation with one of my reps not long ago, and it's that pressure of knowing everything. You can't, right? So it's like, okay, you know, and the customers normally are not looking for perfection. They're looking for relevance. They want the relevant solution. What is going to help them? They're not looking for perfect pitch. So

Steve Vaughan (10:34.855)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (10:42.673)
Yeah, but you can't do everything. You can't. It's not possible. know, yeah.

Jonathan (10:52.406)
No, they're not. No.

Steve Vaughan (10:56.271)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Rupa Ark (11:00.429)
It's interesting, I had this conversation with one of my reps and literally they were very sort of overwhelmed by not knowing everything. And that's when also then the imposter syndrome shows up.

Jonathan (11:07.02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Let's face it. know, we've met some, let's, know, anyone listening to this podcast has probably met some amazing scientists. In some cases, you know, they may have even won a Nobel Prize, you know, in some scientific discipline, right? Or they invented something significant, or they played a key role, you know, participated in something that was, you know, that saves lives, that...

Steve Vaughan (11:11.699)
Don't c-

Rupa Ark (11:20.9)
Yes.

Rupa Ark (11:25.188)
You

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (11:28.423)
Absolutely.

Rupa Ark (11:35.535)
Mm.

That's right.

Jonathan (11:38.434)
that makes a huge difference. yeah, real easy to feel like that as you move towards a conversation with them. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (11:47.73)
I just want to pick up on a couple of things. mean, first of all, guys, that was great. Thank you. It's great when you're the host and you don't have to say anything. It's fantastic. But picking up on what you said, sometimes feeling like you walked in the wrong room. I generally did feel that when Jonathan and I were involved in a large training course in Dallas in a hotel of 1800 rooms. I actually did think I'd walked in the wrong room at one stage. I think I probably did. But in all seriousness, the word we've used a lot now in this section is suffer.

Jonathan (11:55.33)
You

Rupa Ark (12:10.715)
Bye.

Steve Vaughan (12:16.851)
I've suffered from imposter syndrome and suffer is a word that has negative connotations, know, suffering from grief or pain or whatever. But is it a bad thing in that case? I don't necessarily think imposter syndrome is a bad thing. So we suffer the right word, you know.

Rupa Ark (12:17.965)
Mm. Mm.

Rupa Ark (12:22.797)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jonathan (12:33.76)
No, no. I think this is good. Can you have such a thing as good suffering? There's probably, if I pulled my English language course book off the shelf there, there's a, I'm not going to make a fool of myself by stating what that is, but I think it is good suffering because my observation would be it's driven, you know, great, it's driven really good or great. In some cases I've seen it drive great performance from people.

Steve Vaughan (12:39.195)
I don't know, that's why I'm asking really, yeah.

Rupa Ark (12:44.623)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (12:49.976)
No.

Steve Vaughan (13:01.319)
Yeah.

Jonathan (13:03.244)
and they've quite frankly, they've done something which they never thought they would be capable of. And they've come away from a conversation with somebody with enormous credibility. And of course, then there's that huge boosting confidence that it gives them, but they still suffer from it.

Steve Vaughan (13:07.61)
Absolutely.

Rupa Ark (13:15.099)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (13:19.173)
Yeah, exactly.

Rupa Ark (13:20.249)
I think I agree with you. think suffer is a strong word. It shows up. It shows up for me at times and it still does. And I think to answer your question, is it bad? I think it's bad if you don't become aware of it and do anything about it. Okay, so it's acknowledging it. So when it shows up for me, I acknowledge it. Okay?

Jonathan (13:38.156)
Yes.

Steve Vaughan (13:38.265)
good point, good point.

Rupa Ark (13:49.293)
I'm in that room. Yes, I am here because I was asked to come here. I'm here because I've been hired by the company to do that job because of my capabilities, because of my skills. Right. I am here because I have worked for this space where I am. Right. So I think I agree. It is good provided that you are aware of it. You acknowledge it and you do something about it.

Steve Vaughan (13:55.261)
Great point.

Jonathan (13:55.288)
Correct.

Steve Vaughan (14:01.807)
Absolutely.

Jonathan (14:09.526)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (14:18.565)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that

Jonathan (14:18.688)
Yeah and or your manager recognises it and helps you manage that because it can really harm hurt people's confidence because you suffer from it once I think I've seen people suffer from it

Rupa Ark (14:23.095)
absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (14:23.313)
Yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (14:34.441)
absolutely.

Jonathan (14:39.744)
not just because I'm meeting this leading scientist or I'm meeting a senior executive of this large organization, why on earth would they want to talk to me? But I've then seen that roll over into many more conversations where it shouldn't really, but it does. It's an unusual...

Rupa Ark (14:42.336)
Mm. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (14:48.946)
Mmm.

Rupa Ark (14:57.211)
Mm.

Steve Vaughan (15:00.595)
Absolutely. And just to come back on what you said a minute ago, Rupa, well, I can, about confidence and competence, because I think that's a really important point I'd just like to come back to. To me, if I'm feening imposter syndrome or I'm aware of it, that to me means I'm not overconfident.

Overconfidence can be not a good thing sometimes in sales where we think we just got to walk in and we can just inverted commas wing it. I think in business, if I'm feeling imposter syndrome, it means that I know I've got to prepare. I've got to really put the work in beforehand. I've got to know my stuff before I turn up really. So I think in that respect, it's a good thing.

Rupa Ark (15:28.437)
Mm, yes, yeah.

Rupa Ark (15:37.56)
Absolutely.

Yeah, it's and also you also said something there preparation. I think it often shows up in over preparation as well. Right. So again, so sometimes you we are prepared and you so again, giving my example, you prepare, you prepare, you prepare and then you sort of almost start doubting yourself. Have I done enough? So hesitation, you know, that holding back.

Steve Vaughan (15:50.274)
okay. Tell me more.

Steve Vaughan (16:05.586)
Right.

Rupa Ark (16:09.499)
it's rather than the obvious fear, it's the holding back that actually sort of thinking, oh, yeah, I've done enough. I've done prepared. It's OK. I can do this now. It's going back to again, having that self doubt. So, yeah, where you've sort of got yourself tangled, you know, in overthinking. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (16:17.875)
Mm.

Steve Vaughan (16:28.263)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A like revising for your finals those years ago. Yeah, I haven't done enough. I'm actually meeting some university friends this weekend. So I'm going to meet some people I haven't met for 40 years. That's going to be interesting. That's a massive digression. Anyway, so what are your thoughts regarding confidence versus competence, in this topic?

Jonathan (16:33.91)
Almost there!

Rupa Ark (16:41.883)
Wow.

Jonathan (16:50.958)
Yeah, that's a good one. And I probably just go back to, mean, I know this is a little selfish and self-indulgent. I'll probably just talk about my own, a little bit about my own career and I think it's of other people. I think when you first start, I mean, I got a great start in selling. I worked for a good company, got some great training, had some really capable, amazingly capable people around me. And I was just constantly...

Steve Vaughan (16:52.872)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (17:01.329)
No frame of reference. Yeah.

Jonathan (17:18.798)
coached, mentored, challenged, etc. although I wasn't, you know, and they constantly, one of things they were really good at was constantly boost, they constantly boosted my confidence. Right, even though from a competence perspective, wow, I still have a lot to learn and, you know, and I was losing orders that I'd never lose today, of course. So I think, where you've got one in

Rupa Ark (17:21.605)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (17:34.035)
Right.

Rupa Ark (17:35.323)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (17:41.915)
Of course.

Rupa Ark (17:42.242)
Hehehehehe

Jonathan (17:46.454)
you where you've got one or both at a very high level, perhaps, you know, it's a very manageable thing. But I remember, you know, when I, when I made a, you know, moved away from my first company, went to another organization and met again, some extraordinarily capable people in that business. But now I was meeting a level of customer that I'd never met in my life before. And suddenly, you know, my goodness me, my, competence was, was relatively low again.

confidence wasn't high because it was a completely different job as well. And so I remember going making a visit to, know, I think was one of the inventors of magnetic sector mass spectrometry. And I really felt, you know, and I did feel I had a terrible dose of imposter syndrome in the lead up to that meeting. And I did what you said it, Rupa, I almost certainly overprepared for that meeting if there is such a thing, right?

Steve Vaughan (18:27.419)
Wow.

Steve Vaughan (18:40.945)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (18:41.019)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (18:43.449)
I think there is, yeah.

Jonathan (18:44.334)
spent a disproportionate amount of time preparing that. And then I made this amazing discovery about people like that. And this is more a cure for imposter syndrome or a possible cure was that he gave me the best training course I think I've ever had in my life on magnetic sector mass spectrometry. I went to see one of the first instrument he'd ever built and he gave me this incredible training course. And it was just, yeah, it was wow.

Steve Vaughan (19:07.922)
Wow.

Jonathan (19:14.51)
It was really surprising, but I was definitely suffering before I went there.

Rupa Ark (19:15.291)
Yeah, that's a really good example there. So, I mean, I think I'm giving a very bad example of a technical sale. So we work in life sciences, we sell highly technical products. And again, you're not going to know everything. But being competent means and have been competent saying to the customer, OK.

Steve Vaughan (19:30.81)
I know, yes.

No, you can't.

Jonathan (19:34.54)
No, you never can.

Rupa Ark (19:42.337)
I don't have all the knowledge, but I know somebody who does. Right. So that's where your confidence comes in. And to me, confidence always follows an action. Right. So it's like you're going to say, OK, I will bring in somebody who knows. So at that point, not saying not trying to sell something that you're not able to completely give the answer to the customer. Remember, customers are looking for those scientific solutions. So this is where your confidence is. OK.

Steve Vaughan (19:45.41)
Absolutely.

Rupa Ark (20:10.071)
I am not an expert at everything, but I know who does and I'm going to bring them in. That's how I absolutely say you can do both.

Steve Vaughan (20:13.722)
Yeah, totally, totally agree with that. Yeah.

Jonathan (20:20.32)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (20:20.971)
Just reflecting on my own career as well guys, because you're both giving examples of your own and when I've experienced this post-traumatic most is when I've really stepped up, like when I moved to Thermo Fisher, know, and moved into that organization and the sheer complexity of everything else and that feeling of being completely overwhelmed by everything really. Is there a, and you know, eventually I've very quickly found my level and gone into it, but is there something here where...

Rupa Ark (20:30.393)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rupa Ark (20:41.979)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Vaughan (20:46.77)
Perhaps managers and leaders need to be aware when people are stepping up significantly in their role or in their responsibilities. They may not feel that they've got the skills and the knowledge to do the job.

Rupa Ark (20:52.683)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think no, but I think there's a two things. think Jonathan sort of alluded onto that earlier that what managers can do and this sort of like, you know, so first of all, you are a manager managing sales teams and they are having my reps, general account managers, technical sales specialists, whatever they are, well, they're account managers. So a rep could be moving from an account manager to a strategic account manager, right?

Steve Vaughan (21:01.754)
Okay.

Steve Vaughan (21:10.885)
Yeah.

Jonathan (21:19.918)
So.

Steve Vaughan (21:24.262)
Yeah, that's a very different job. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (21:25.497)
you are completely moving into a different world where you've got to be speaking to senior people at a pharma, CEOs, CFOs, you know, their big procurement. So that's where as a manager you wish you were promoting. And then of course, if you're becoming a manager, then it's completely, so I think as a manager, you have to be aware and sharing, I mean, to me, and you mentioned to me, you mentioned me being on LinkedIn.

Steve Vaughan (21:28.272)
Yeah.

Jonathan (21:28.621)
yeah.

Steve Vaughan (21:30.874)
CEOs, the likes, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (21:54.265)
You know how transparent and authentic I am. And it is all about sharing your... So normalizing that it's okay to have this bit of a fear, bit of a imposter syndrome that shows up. It's okay. It's nothing to be fear about. So as a manager, you're right. think ashamed of, right? Yeah. And sharing your own experiences. I openly talk about these things. And yeah, and...

Steve Vaughan (21:56.688)
You're superb on it. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (22:08.774)
Yeah.

Yeah, or shamed off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan (22:12.027)
That's right, yeah. Agreed, strongly, yes.

Steve Vaughan (22:20.55)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (22:23.139)
And letting people be curious, I think, again, we talked about imposter syndrome, that people who really, if you're curious, you'll be asking lots and lots of questions, right? And have that curiosity. And as a manager, it's all that comes into coaching. I think it's a key factor that you should be adding to your day-to-day mentoring and coaching, for sure.

Steve Vaughan (22:33.155)
Absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (22:40.293)
Hmm.

Yeah, good.

Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan, your thoughts?

Jonathan (22:46.286)
Yeah, I mean, I think another scenario, and go back to the competence and the confidence here. think especially when you make a career move, right? You make a move in role, you move up, et cetera. Something else that if I reflected on my...

Rupa Ark (22:58.811)
Mm.

Jonathan (23:06.092)
You know, did I truly reflect on it at the time? Perhaps not. But I have subsequently. I think it's very easy to end up, you know, I've worked in one organization, well, one particularly, where I met some incredibly talented people. And when I compared myself against them, it was, dear, right?

You know, they've achieved more in a sales environment than I have. They've got better academic qualifications than I have. So everything was, you know, it was kind of stacked against me. Now, I mean, that just made me more determined. But I think again, if you're managing a team and you you're promoting somebody, know, a higher level, conscious of it. Because I guess if I felt it, I mean, I know I'm odd, but.

Steve Vaughan (23:40.261)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (23:42.65)
Yes.

Rupa Ark (23:51.835)
Yeah.

Jonathan (23:58.318)
I'm probably not completely odd. There's probably other people that have thought like that too. And I still today get intimidated by one or two of the people I meet because they're phenomenally smart, right? They've achieved so much in business, but then they've also got incredible knowledge at a scientific level as well. And they've got a first, second, and even third degree. And you just think, wow.

Rupa Ark (24:04.219)
Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (24:04.337)
I'm sure we all have. We all have, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (24:10.833)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (24:17.945)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (24:23.633)
Hmm.

Jonathan (24:28.426)
Okay, so, so, boy, am I on guard at that moment in time!

Rupa Ark (24:32.699)
Yeah, absolutely. We are living in a comparison culture at the moment. We're living in a, I mean, social media. my God, who's got more likes than I have and how many followers have I got? Yeah, I mean, yeah, great. But I think, I think you mentioned something. my God, he or she is better than me. And that's where also.

Jonathan (24:37.665)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (24:37.681)
That's a very good point, very good point. Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan (24:47.086)
Oh, that doesn't worry me. I can imagine they would do something. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (24:48.689)
Just me, just me a little bit. He does me a little bit, I'll be honest.

Jonathan (25:00.792)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (25:00.793)
your imposter syndrome shows up. Jonathan, you made a very valid point there about, you know, having that higher personal standards. It's always so, you know, currently we are in that that culture where you got to post on LinkedIn about your somebody's posted a big win on LinkedIn and you're sitting there reading and thinking, my God, wish I could do it. Right. So, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (25:02.075)
Hmm, hmm. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (25:20.07)
Yeah.

Jonathan (25:24.322)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (25:24.931)
Is there, I just think you were talking about, and I don't know the answer to this, I'm just thinking out loud. Is there something though for managers and leaders to be aware of for somebody who is really, really, really, really having lots of imposter syndrome that actually that might be an early warning that actually they aren't coping? I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. that be an indication actually in all honesty that there is massive imposter syndrome because they really are finding it really difficult and not coping? Or am I overthinking that?

Rupa Ark (25:41.723)
Yes.

Hmm.

Rupa Ark (25:54.861)
Yeah, think so as managers, the only way you're going to see that being spending time out on the field with your reps and I think depending on how you're structured, how much time you're getting with everybody, it's like where else and the other places to see would be in team calls, right? So, you know, when you have a team call, you always, you know, I'm very much of the case that everybody should have their camera on and as a

Steve Vaughan (26:01.068)
Absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (26:13.498)
Yeah.

Jonathan (26:16.555)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (26:23.417)
Yeah, absolutely.

Rupa Ark (26:23.739)
especially on a monthly team call, have this town hall, and then we give everybody the opportunity to share their success stories, and you make a valid point, Steven, as a manager, your radar should be on a high alert to sort of say, who is not speaking up? Who is the one that we know they're doing a good job, but they never speak? Why aren't they sharing their success stories? What else is going on? And then being out in the field when you're out with them sitting down, because it's...

Steve Vaughan (26:35.856)
completely.

Steve Vaughan (26:46.127)
Yeah, good point.

Jonathan (26:46.166)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rupa Ark (26:54.107)
How would you know somebody's got a, I mean, when I tell people, I, imposter syndrome shows up to me, they're going, are you kidding us, Rupa, seriously? You know, absolutely. So I think you I guess, a very, very valid point. Yeah, we are human beings, we are human beings.

Steve Vaughan (27:05.681)
Yeah, but it's because we're human beings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan (27:06.286)
Yeah, yeah. What's fascinating for me guys is that, you know, I've been in this business for 40 years and I think if every listener was honest with themselves, how long have they spent discussing this topic? Because I can honestly say, this is probably, I don't know whether this will be, will stay and all be edited out, but I can honestly say that this will be the longest I've ever had a focused conversation

Rupa Ark (27:29.531)
You

Jonathan (27:36.012)
you know, on imposter syndrome. Before now, it's been a kind of in passing conversation, really. And yet it may have been five or 10 minutes here with a rep or somebody, you know, I can think of a conversation somebody had with me. And sometimes it's been family members that have helped me, okay, through it. But I'm not sure after, you know, that I've spent this long actually discussing this topic. So.

Rupa Ark (27:37.327)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (27:38.043)
There you go.

Rupa Ark (27:43.065)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (27:49.979)
Mmm.

Steve Vaughan (27:53.317)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (28:00.763)
Promise I'll leave it in Jonathan, promise.

Jonathan (28:02.336)
Right okay and I've never asked Steve what...

Rupa Ark (28:05.537)
No, think, think, Jonathan, you make such a valid point. My example only started talking about my own sort of any self-doubt about me since I sort of hit middle age. Okay. Sort of when you become a bit more comfortable with who you are. So I think as you, and you start, and now I openly talk about it. There's nothing, I talk about everything and women's health.

Steve Vaughan (28:25.102)
Exactly.

Jonathan (28:25.75)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (28:33.123)
leadership issues or whatever there is to encourage the next generation to come up and say, it's okay. It's okay. So, but you're absolutely right. Few years back, no. I mean, I went on coaching a lot of like mentoring and coaching programs where we would stand up and do a little session on imposter syndrome. But you're absolutely right. We don't, I don't think so. We talk about it enough, but you're right. It's, it's the conversations to be, to be had, especially as managers, as leaders.

Jonathan (28:33.666)
Thank

Steve Vaughan (28:39.601)
Yeah.

Jonathan (28:41.592)
Yeah.

Jonathan (28:57.312)
No, no.

Steve Vaughan (28:59.409)
you

Jonathan (29:02.35)
Yes, yes, yes. I've got so much going around in my head now after you've said that I don't know what to say.

Rupa Ark (29:02.363)
as coaches.

Steve Vaughan (29:03.121)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (29:08.625)
Well, let me say something in that case, because we've managed to speak for nearly 30 minutes on imposter syndrome. So as a kind of a wrap up then for both of you, if somebody's listening to this right now in the car and really relating to the conversation saying, yeah, that's me, I'm really to use the inverted comma suffering with imposter syndrome right now, what one thing that you would say to them to give them something to think about? Perhaps one from both of you. What would you say, Jonathan?

Rupa Ark (29:26.853)
Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (29:35.296)
I would say look at it as an opportunity to learn. And Rupa, I apologize if I've taken yours there. I would look at it as an opportunity to learn. And I think if I reflect on all of the various methods that I've tried to manage this when it struck me, and it's not something that's even struck me consistently, it's just occasion, it's just.

Rupa Ark (29:40.859)
Mm-hmm.

Rupa Ark (29:44.578)
No, no.

Jonathan (30:03.31)
Wow, you know, I now know I'm inverted commas suffering. I know we tried to define that, but look at it as an opportunity to learn because boy, when I reflect on those scenarios where I perhaps was suffering inverted commas most, I learned the most because I was so thorough in my preparation. I didn't over prepare, right? I went to a depth I've never been before, right? And you know, and

You know, I've read about topics that I've never read about before, or I've listened even more intently to what I was being told. So, you know, it's really helped me learn. And I know most of the time we just learn in lots and lots of small steps, but I can think of a couple of occasions where I've learned things that have just made a massive difference in my business career. Okay. And that's...

Steve Vaughan (30:58.341)
Great, great points.

Jonathan (31:00.012)
That's helped me enormously, I have to say. That would be a tip I would give anybody. Look at it as a fabulous learning opportunity.

Steve Vaughan (31:01.969)
Yeah, thank you Jonathan.

Steve Vaughan (31:08.537)
Love that. Did he steal yours, Rupa? Or did he have something different?

Rupa Ark (31:11.035)
know, very similar, but what I'm going to say, bringing you back to sales is, you know, if you feel like your imposter syndrome shows up occasionally, it usually means you are stretching yourself. And in sales, that's where you need to be. Right. And also learn. And I think the other one I really want to bring the confidence back, speak up anyway.

Steve Vaughan (31:27.064)
Absolutely.

Jonathan (31:31.15)
That's good.

Steve Vaughan (31:31.887)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (31:40.899)
Right? And, you know, just speak up, ask the right question, be curious, and everything will work out.

Jonathan (31:41.848)
Great.

Jonathan (31:49.102)
Yeah, because there's bound to be somebody else in that room or in that meeting or somebody will find you afterwards to actually empathize with you around this. I'm sure of that. Yeah.

Rupa Ark (31:59.387)
Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (32:01.136)
Yeah, yeah. My final thought was that the people most worried about doing a good job are often the people customers trust the most because they care enough to prepare, listen and improve. And again, I've stolen that, but I think it's a great, it's a great wrapper because it shows that you care, doesn't it? If you've got a process, it shows you care, you know, and customers value.

Jonathan (32:12.611)
Yeah.

Rupa Ark (32:13.499)
Great. Yeah.

Jonathan (32:18.732)
Yes, does. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And how many customers ever asked that actually explicitly asked that question? Do you care about me? Not very many, right, but it's probably going around in, you know, in the head. So yeah, head.

Rupa Ark (32:29.271)
Yeah, no, Absolutely, absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (32:35.428)
Jonathan Rupa, thank you both so much for the conversation. We could have carried on with this for another couple of hours, I think, really. We'll definitely have you back again, Rupa. It's been great having you on. Thank you so much for... Well, you work for the company, so you'll get one automatically, but we'll definitely have you back on, Rupa, if you could. It'd be fantastic of you.

Jonathan (32:39.102)
I'm sure it's over really!

Rupa Ark (32:41.433)
Yeah.

Jonathan (32:45.192)
so I don't get an invite back, but you do,

Rupa Ark (32:47.737)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Thank you, it was lovely talking to you too Jonathan. Hope you found this coaching session useful.

Jonathan (32:54.734)
Thank you, Rupa.

Do you know, extremely, it's been very, very thought provoking. I've now got more questions than I had coming into it. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Steve. Yeah, thank you,

Steve Vaughan (32:59.47)
Hahaha.

Rupa Ark (33:03.675)
The way you said, you've got lots of notes to follow up now. I love it.

Steve Vaughan (33:08.4)
Well, that's the whole aim of the podcast. And seriously, Jonathan, thank you for stepping in. We've got some of our colleagues elsewhere in Europe who are otherwise engaged. It's a holiday day today in Central Europe. So thank you very much for coming on. If you've enjoyed today's episode, listeners, don't forget to give us a like on Apple or Spotify, ideally a five-star review. It does help us in lots of weird and wonderful ways. We are planning to take this podcast, not live, but as a video podcast, onto YouTube.

That's me, my imposter syndrome, to learn how to do that. But we definitely got to do it in the near future. As always, if you've got topics that you'd like us to touch on in the podcast, then please let us know as well. And of course, if you're like Rupa and you would love to come on a podcast, we would love to hear from you as well. If you're working in sales or sales leadership in our core markets of lab, life science, precision instruments, we'd absolutely love to hear from you as well.

I'll be back again in a couple of weeks time with another topic. Until then happy selling and we'll talk to you soon.