Sales Manager's Playbook – Coaching vs Controlling

n this episode of The Luxury of Choice, Steve Vaughan is joined by Jonathan Cooper and Pascal Le Floch to explore one of the biggest challenges facing sales managers: knowing when to coach and when to direct.

The discussion covers:

•  What coaching really means—and why it is not giving advice or telling people what to do. 
•  The difference between coaching, directing, supporting, and delegating. 
•  Why many sales managers default to controlling behaviour, especially under pressure. 
•  The role of questioning, active listening, and helping salespeople find their own solutions. 
•  How coaching builds ownership, accountability, confidence, and long-term performance. 
•  When directive leadership is appropriate, particularly with new or inexperienced team members. 
•  Using Situational Leadership to adapt management style to the individual and the task. 
•  The balance between winning critical deals and using customer visits as coaching opportunities. 
•  How to handle performance issues and when coaching alone is not enough. 
•  The value of planned coaching sessions versus spontaneous day-to-day coaching moments. 
•  Building a coaching culture through peer-to-peer support and mentoring. 

Key Takeaways

•  Coaching is about helping people think, not telling them what to do. 
•  Great coaching relies on asking effective questions and listening actively. 
•  New salespeople often need more direction; experienced salespeople need more coaching and autonomy. 
•  Coaching is an investment of time that ultimately creates more capable and independent team members. 
•  The best sales managers consciously adapt their leadership style to the situation. 
•  If you're not coaching regularly, you're missing one of the most powerful tools available to a sales leader. 

Recommended Reading

Growing Human Potential by Sir John Whitmore – a classic introduction to coaching and the GROW model.

Steve Vaughan, Jonathan Cooper, Pru Layton, Christian Walter, Pascal le Floche,  Jayne Green  and Jonathan Slasinski are Sales Trainers from george james ltd.  You can email the show at:  Podcast@georgejames-training.com

 The trainers on LinkedIn:

 Steve Vaughan https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-vaughan-salestrainer/
Jonathan Cooper https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cooper-18716b1/
Pru Layton https://www.linkedin.com/in/pru-layton-b46a3528/
Christian Walter https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-walter-a1857b1/
Jayne Green https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-green-salestrainer/
Pascal Le Floch-Riche https://www.linkedin.com/in/pascal-le-floch-220ba46/

Jonathan Slasinski https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-slasinski-449a655/

george james training website https://georgejames-training.com/

Transcript

Steve Vaughan (00:01)
Hello again and welcome to the Luxury of Choice, a B2B technical sales and business podcast brought to you by the training team of George James Limited. My name is Steve Vaughan. I'm one of the training team here at George James and also the host and producer of this podcast. Today, I've got two colleagues with me on the panel, Jonathan Cooper and Pascal Le Floch And I think I'm right in saying for all of us, we're a bit happier. It's a bit cooler. It's been a warm week, guys. It's been really, really hot here in Oxfordshire. What was it like in France this week, Pascal? Was it warm for you?

Pascal (00:31)
yeah it varied ⁓ depending on the the the regions of France. But let's say that I I was quite lucky here in ⁓ North Finister because ⁓ the temperature were not so high

Steve Vaughan (00:42)
Was it bit warm up in the north of England, Jonathan?

Jonathan (00:44)
Yeah,

cracked above freezing for one day. It was good. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's been it's been yeah, it's been lovely up here and and it was nice to I've timed it beautifully. I'm not I've haven't been travelling this week, so it's it's been nice. Got my lettuce seeds planted and they've already sprouted in the greenhouse. So hey, can't beat it, can you?

Steve Vaughan (00:56)
Yeah.

Perfect. Well,

I guarantee it's going to rain nonstop next week as the Test match season starts next week. So it's bound to ⁓ start raining nonstop when England are playing cricket. Anyway, this isn't the rest is cricket. This is the luxury of choice. So what's our topic today? We've an intriguing title for the podcast today. The sales manager's playbook, coaching versus controlling, or we could also say directing, suppose, as well.

Jonathan (01:05)
yes, of course, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Vaughan (01:26)
⁓ so this is one for the sales managers, but if you're a salesperson, don't list, don't tune off because this is equally applicable for you as well. So what we're going to look at today really is the difference between coaching and telling really, or coaching and directing. you know, as managers we do, hopefully we do bit of both of that really, but I think in my experience, sales managers, particularly inexperienced sales managers tend to default too often to the telling and directing and a bit less.

of the coaching. first of all, guys, why is this an issue or am I overplaying this? In your experience, Jonathan, you know, is directing too much and not giving people coaching a challenge in our industry.

Jonathan (02:10)
Yeah, I I don't think you're overplaying it at all. And could could I just say to the ⁓ to anyone who's listening who ⁓ who's mas truly mastered this, then well done. ⁓ because I j I j I think it's actually one of the hardest things that for most for most sales managers to overcome. I think this tendency, this just this natural tendency, I think perhaps you know, I think largely driven by this natural style.

Steve Vaughan (02:21)
Yeah.

Jonathan (02:35)
to be you know very directive and be quite controlling. ⁓ I think that's ⁓ I I th I think that's at at the the the heart of the problem really. and if you combine that with often people in a hurry 'cause they've got a ton of stuff to do, ⁓ it's a pretty lethal combination. And and I think sometimes, you know, people think they've been co ⁓ coaching. Actually they've not they've not been coaching at all.

Steve Vaughan (02:47)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Jonathan (02:57)
And then of of course against the that we have the backdrop of situational leadership, which I'm sure will come up in this conversation. So my immediate ⁓ response will be that, Steve. My immediate thoughts that. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (03:02)
Sure. Yeah. Well, of course we've covered before on the, yeah, absolutely.

And we have covered situations leadership in a previous pod, but I'm sure we will go there again. Pascal, mean, you're somebody with coaching qualifications. What does, I mean, let's go right to the basic. What does coaching actually mean? What is coaching? What is a definition of coaching?

Pascal (03:25)
Yeah, thank thanks Steve for asking this question because that there is ⁓ a lot of a misunderstanding or interpretation about the word of coaching, you know what it means really. So it's everything except you know giving ex ⁓ let's say advices, recommendations, or telling people what to do. Coaching is the art of questioning.

Steve Vaughan (03:40)
Great. Yeah.

Jonathan (03:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Pascal (03:47)
So that people, when they have the question, they have to reflect, they have to think and they will bring their own solutions. So doing so as a manager, you will educate and enable people, let's say empowering people, to increase their autonomy and responsibilities sense.

Steve Vaughan (04:04)
Hmm.

Jonathan (04:05)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:05)
So it's giving people

the scope and the, not quite the freedom perhaps, but the ability to say, you work it out, you develop your plan, you make it happen, I'm here to support you rather than coming in and saying, you should be doing this. Have you done that? When have you done this? Why haven't you done that? And so on really. I guess that's what we're saying guys, really, yeah.

Jonathan (04:24)
Yeah. And somebody somebody once gave me a great definition of coaching. ⁓ I've never I've never seen it written in a book. ⁓ so, you know, to the person that gave me this, if you're listening to this podcast you'll know who you are. it's ⁓ they said it's taking people on a journey of self discovery. You know, a really grand title, isn't it? ⁓ but actually I I it it it struck a chord with me. I always felt that that was, you know, tr truly meaningful as you know, as you know, one of

several definitions I'm sure. ⁓ but I really love that because th that really helps you understand, you know, as a as a manager when you're coaching, you know, what you should be doing, ⁓ with the with the with with your salespeople or the people in your team, whiche whichever. So yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (04:57)
great definition.

Yeah, point.

And I'm going to embarrass you now, Jonathan, not that I do that very often, but I'm going to embarrass you today. one of the reasons that, one of the main reasons that I have had the career that I've had, and I'm in the role that I've had now, is that you were my coach a long, time ago, ⁓ 15 plus years ago now. And I think if I may, just bear with me for a minute or two guys, because I think it's a great scenario for what we're discussing today. So at the particular time I was, you know, ⁓

Jonathan (05:23)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (05:35)
recently promoted senior manager in an organization. And I was quite conflicted that I was being asked to do one thing by my boss, but actually my job description was something very different at the time. And I remember you coaching me significantly, Jonathan. And at the time, I just want you to tell me what to do. I kept, I remember saying, you know, but Jonathan, what do I do? Tell me what to do. And you wouldn't, you wouldn't tell me what to do because you were coaching me. Do you remember that time?

Jonathan (05:57)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (06:02)
those experiences.

Jonathan (06:02)
I d I do, yeah, vividly, Steve. Yeah.

yeah. There are mo many things that embarrass me, but strangely enough this isn't one of them. So but no no I do and I and I think ⁓ you know and I I think that's that's you know, as as a manager, I I think it's really important to hold that thought in your in your mind when you go into a coaching session. Yes, there is, you know, always an opportunity to share experiences, to share ideas at some point during a coaching conversation, but initially, no.

Steve Vaughan (06:09)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Jonathan (06:30)
It it is absolutely, you know, in this case, Steve, getting you to think this through. Yeah, consider the issues and find a way through this for yourself. Because because if you if you if you were able to do that and you did successfully, then you know it it it normally means you've got there's great ownership of it, there's great commitment to it. yeah, so the real skill of the of the coach is being able to ask, as Pascal you know has has clearly said, being able to ask great questions and actively listen.

Steve Vaughan (06:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan (06:58)
⁓ is extremely important, you know, if you if you're going to be a really, really good coach. I mean, it's interesting for sales people that become sales managers and anyone, any salespeople listening to this who aspire to be managers in the future, you know, here is a critical skill and capability that you take as a salesperson. You know, and you have to take that forward ⁓ you know, into a managerial role. ⁓ but it's amazing how managers many managers I meet who really struggle with this concept of

Steve Vaughan (07:04)
Hmm.

show.

Hmm.

Jonathan (07:28)
And for the reason I think I stated right at the beginning, it's often it is just pure time pressure and this this this natural desire just to get on with it and because their natural leadership style is w is du is is directive, they've got a preference strong preference for that, then you know, it'll that's when it all goes wrong. And it's not coaching, it is telling. It's in one ear and it goes out of the other. And you make almost no impact. ⁓

Steve Vaughan (07:30)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm. Sure.

Yeah, absolutely. So

I'm sure you're right. So Pascal, managers listen to this call. I'm sure many do aspire to be great coaches really, but I guess what stops it? Because I think in our experience, it is a weak point, it's perhaps too strong a word, but something managers do struggle with, as you say. So what is it Pascal? Is it purely because they're under so much pressure or are there other things going on there?

Pascal (08:15)
couple of elements could could ⁓ let's say push or motivate managers to go back to telling s stuff or things instead of asking questions and coaching. one of them is of course the time pressure the pressure on the results as well ⁓ when the team is behind the

Steve Vaughan (08:31)
Yeah, yeah.

Pascal (08:35)
let's say the the targets, then managers may have a tendency to get things ⁓ happening in their way, meaning that they will start to push and because they want things happening and they know how they were successful in the past as a salesperson.

Steve Vaughan (08:53)
Hmm.

Pascal (08:54)
So they may be tempted to tell their team to do their way. Okay? So all in all, I think that maybe managers may disagree, the ones listening to this call, but we have to be honest. You know, quite often we want to go back on the control. And and and why? Because we are afraid of the fear of losing control.

Steve Vaughan (08:58)
Yeah.

Right? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

Jonathan (09:16)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah. I remember when I was a new manager particularly, I felt very uneasy about this. And it's a great point you raise here. I I I absolutely vividly remember a coaching session with one of my salespeople and he came up with a a a an approach that he was going to take to this account and I just and I I kept thinking, This isn't gonna work, that's not how I would have done it. But I decided to trust

the advice that I've been given, the training that I actually had, and I was very lucky, I got some fantastic training around this a long time ago. ⁓ and I decided to trust it and it was a revelation for me. you know, it really did it it just showed that you know it it it works, okay? We we're all different. We you know, although the outcome that we were seeking was exactly the same.

As I learned a long time ago, there's more than one way to achieve something sometimes. And and I and I think I think I think you're right. There's that inherent bias that we just have, you know, about we we're gonna we wanna do it this way because it worked for us. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna work for somebody else. The end result's what we want. Okay. So yeah, good good re really love that one, Pascal.

Steve Vaughan (10:19)
Yeah.

And I guess

it also depends on how we were managed as salespeople ourselves. If that was how we were managed, you know, we were told what to do, then I guess you learn by your own experiences, don't you really? apply that in your own management style. what about, know, colleague Prude talks about the sales manager's dilemma in this situation really. And what about when you've got that sort of, that big deal, you know, and you're going in to see the customer together and...

the South's persons come up with their approach and you coach them around it. But in your heart of heart, you're thinking, I don't think that's going to work. And we can't afford to lose this one because if this one slips, you know, I don't know where the next one's going to come from. you know, we're going to miss the forecast and stuff. and I've been in that scenario both sides of that conversation many times. I'm sure you both have as well. So how do we handle that one? What do we do? How do we, what's the best practice when we've got that kind of scenario guys? What do you think Pascal?

Jonathan (11:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Pascal (11:16)
Yeah, f first of all I think a key component here or a key success factor is about preparation. What I mean by preparation is that ⁓ both the salesperson and his his or her manager discussing together about this key deal that we we have to win. because it's during the preparation time that if you know each

Steve Vaughan (11:22)
Yeah, love that.

Pascal (11:37)
of the the the the two persons you know involved into the deal, at least at least two persons, they have different opinions or different visions, they can challenge themselves and they can they can explore options and so on and they more important than this, they can agree about the respective roles, especially if they are in front of the customers together.

Steve Vaughan (11:57)
Super important.

Yeah.

Pascal (11:59)
Okay. And preparing the scenarios and and what the customers could argue or or you know provide as as a questions or whatever, you know. So you just prepare different scripts related to the scenarios you could you can imagine in front of the customers. So ⁓ yeah. There are many other things to to discuss, but I will leave so Jonathan to provide his insights.

Steve Vaughan (12:15)
Yeah, super points.

Jonathan (12:19)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (12:21)
Go on Jonathan,

Jonathan (12:23)
And I

hey guys. I've I've got a completely I've got a slightly different view of this, okay. So I would say if the if the deal's business critical, right, then then you know if you are as a sales manager, if you're making a joint visit with one of your salespeople, you know, to a customer on a on a a business critical deal, then for me the primary objective of that of that of that ⁓ joint visit should be to secure the business.

Steve Vaughan (12:24)
I know you're itchy to answer this one, go on.

Okay.

Jonathan (12:51)
Right. That's the key that's the key for me. It should not explicitly be, you know, a a you know, a joint visit where actually the primary focus will be to coach the salesperson on a specific, you know, skill, right? Something like that. ⁓ of course we can use it as a a fantastic coaching opportunity afterwards, but you know the the the I I always I always say rightly or wrongly and it and ⁓ I know I have a strong strong opinion, it doesn't mean I'm right. Or okay, I could be wrong.

Steve Vaughan (12:54)
I agree with that, yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Jonathan (13:21)
and I'm sure there may be some listeners saying, You're wrong, Jonathan, you're wrong and that's okay. But to me, separate the two things. If it's if it's a critical piece of business, you go there as the sales manager to support the salesperson, win that deal. And I completely agree, Pascal, you know, the prep's key, the role definition is key, who's gonna say what to whom and when, etcetera. All of that is really important, right? Clear purpose, all of that stuff. ⁓ and of course, as I said, it's great for coaching afterwards, but you know the

Steve Vaughan (13:46)
Hmm.

Jonathan (13:50)
Some of the best coaching visits also I think back when I was a salesperson and had some amazing coaching from a particular sales manager who I remember remember with huge fondness. And he chose those those times to coach me in the field very, very carefully. He normally we normally it was normally in a in a low what I'd call a low risk environment. I. e. if I messed up or I got something wrong, it didn't actually matter.

Steve Vaughan (14:17)
Mm. Mm.

Jonathan (14:17)
So more often

than not, we ended up in an account that never bought from us, right, as a supplier. You know, they they had a huge preference to for somebody else. What a fantastic place to go learn. But I distinctly remember several large deals where he came where he was with me. The primary objective was we need to get this deal done and get it over the line. And there was a coaching conversation afterwards. So ⁓ that that's as you can tell, I feel very strongly about it.

Steve Vaughan (14:36)
and agree to each other's roles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

suppose there'd be no prizes in going back and seeing the, like the overall manager of the business saying, we lost the order, but it was a great coaching meeting. Yeah. I guess that doesn't work really. I suppose the, guess the takeaway from that is pick the right visit, pick the right meeting. And if it is a must win deal and the sales manager's coming in to add cloud or responsibility or authority to that.

Jonathan (14:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Steve Vaughan (15:06)
deal and agree roles. I used to agree like decoy words or things that if I was the sales manager, which meant the sales person said, help, need you to step in here or something, little signals or little cues. I don't want to go into what coaching is specifically. We've done a lot about coaching and I'm sure we'll do a lot more. But when is coaching the right scenario?

Jonathan (15:16)
Right. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, the cycle is always good. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (15:31)
When should we be providing coaching as a manager as opposed to telling them what to do? When is the right time then?

Pascal (15:37)
Yeah, mm a couple of things here. Th the the there is a question of time, but there is a question of people and situation. So

Yeah, let me probably then bring the situational leadership here into the the equation because i if you have in front of you as a manager a beginner, a sales beginner, you know, a salesperson as a beginner. So he will need some guidance, he will need some boundaries as well, because ⁓ he's not equipped, you know, he doesn't know ⁓ really how to do let's say how to do correctly the things to move to progress. So

As a manager, you'll not catch this person. You will be direct. so it's a directive mode or directing mode in terms of the leadership. Okay, so when when a person becomes more skilled,

Steve Vaughan (16:19)
Hmm.

Pascal (16:26)
but are still to learn some things, then you you are moving to a more let's say a sort of coaching mode, asking questions, so that he he can find his own way to progress. And and last you move and and two other aspects is that when people are very experienced, you are more in a supportive mode, even in a delay delegating mode. Okay. So that's one aspect I wanted to to to bring. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (16:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's a good point. Yeah, then that's it. Relation leadership,

of course. Yes. Yeah.

Jonathan (16:53)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I

I always relate it to I I think a great thing to do here is to think of you know, there's a great analogy here. Most of us have, you know, got ho ⁓ what would hope or anyone who's listening to this has a a sport they've loved playing or still play, or a a hobby that they have. you know, s something where, you know, and I remember the first time ever let let's pick golf. Of course, you know, I was hopeless at it. But, you know

Steve Vaughan (17:18)
Yeah, I still am.

Jonathan (17:19)
I Yes, yeah. hey, no comment on that, Steve. You know, and I and I r and I remember

Steve Vaughan (17:23)
I'm only saying that because I'm going on a golf break for a couple of days after this podcast.

Jonathan (17:26)
vividly the first golf lesson I ever had, and it was one of these mass lessons, you know, there were other people there. And w you know, we all rocked up with with all the gear and as they say, all the gear and no idea. And ⁓ gee, I couldn't even I didn't even know how to stand and address the ball properly. I didn't even know how to hold the club properly. I was swinging away as if I was playing cricket. So it was fine. ⁓ but it wasn't fine.

Steve Vaughan (17:37)
Yeah, that's me. That's me.

Jonathan (17:49)
So I was given really, really close instruction and boy, I needed it. But I remember by the end of that lesson, I hit a drive which I would never have believed I could ever have hit had I not had that instruction. and then as as we as the second lesson came came along, I was still there, you know, really keen, I was early. But you know, it's interesting, isn't it? You notice the drop off, the number of people who started off hugely enthusiastic and

you know, what do they call that first level of development of an individual in situational leadership? An enthusiastic beginner. Loads of those. Okay. And then directing and controlling is you know, be very direct directive. It's incredibly important to give that close instruction to explain to someone how to do something. So I always think there's a great analogy there with s with with with with sport at the end of the day. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (18:19)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

The analogy

I always use when I talk about this in training is I've got a bass guitar upstairs, which is dusting, probably going moldy now because I bought it five years ago when I was going to become the new ⁓ Jack Bruce or Gellie Lee or somebody. I was super, super enthusiastic.

Jonathan (18:49)
Ha ha ha.

Steve Vaughan (18:51)
a few evenings of horrible buzzing sounds and sore fingers. I thought this is a bit hard really, you know, and that's when I did needed that sort of, you know, the direction of somebody saying, this is how you do it. This is what you need to do because there's only so much you can learn on YouTube videos and things really. so I think putting this back into the world of world of sales really, you no, it's good. The great analogies, you know, you wouldn't, and I'm sure I've said this before on this podcast, but you wouldn't hire a new salesperson. hope they're listener. You wouldn't hire a new salesperson brand new in sales, never sold before.

Jonathan (19:08)
Sorry.

Steve Vaughan (19:19)
straight out of the lab and on the first day say, know, here's the keys to your car, here's your laptop, here's your phone, off you go, good luck and we'll see you in 12 months time. You you wouldn't do that would you? You need to give somebody strong direction, strong guidance and that's the importance of the role there. But I guess we can get it wrong with more experienced people, can't we, if we take that approach.

Jonathan (19:36)
Yeah.

Pascal (19:40)
and and and you can probably ⁓ let's say hit two two balls at the same time there because ⁓ instead of ⁓ guiding you yourself, you know this new salesperson, you could delegate this to some team member who is very experienced and who could then develop these coaching skills and ⁓ and then you save time as a manager and ⁓ work more on the strategic aspects.

Steve Vaughan (19:57)
That's a great point.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. ⁓

Jonathan (20:08)
Even more

time, you know, 'cause the whole point of, you know, coaching anyone is ultimately so such that what's the what's the end what's the end result? Well, you know, what is it ultimately we're trying to achieve here? We we're coaching we but we we direct people, then coach, ultimately support them. So ultimately we can de delegate things to them and save even more time. So, you know, and and coaching for me, I think the other the the pull factor for me, you know, why I I try to become a good coach and I and for everyone out there who I try to coach

or ⁓ successfully or unsuccessfully coach, I tried my best. you know, that the the huge fall factor for me was ⁓ the amount of time that you know it was one of these classics invest time to save time. I just saved so much time which allowed me to get on and do some of the stuff that actually I should have been doing, right? ⁓ I can't close all the deals. I'd love to, but I can't close all the deals. My team has to be capable of that. So I need to get them into the shape

Steve Vaughan (20:41)
Well it worked for me!

Yeah, that's all right. So right.

Of course.

Jonathan (21:05)
you know, to be ultimately be able to do that. ⁓ so invest time to save time's a huge one for me in all of this. Yeah. Great great mindset to have.

Steve Vaughan (21:10)
Yeah, completely, And

a thought popped into my mind while we talking and forgive me guys, this isn't in our prep notes so that I'm going to hit you with this one left field. what about when we're dealing with poor performance or performance issues? Where does coaching, what role has coaching got there, if any, know, somebody, somebody's just not hitting the expected numbers. Where does that come in?

Jonathan (21:29)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I mean I I I I just I think on this I think it it's important to understand, you know, w when the coaching com you know when the coaching conversation ⁓ starts and ends, okay? And when it's time to move to a conversation which is a more difficult conversation for most of us about poor performance. They are two different conversations. However

Steve Vaughan (21:55)
Yeah. Right.

Jonathan (21:58)
As part of the remedy and some of the things that you may some of the actions that you might identify as part of addressing poor performance, right, and improving someone's performance, part of that might be the coaching that you agree to give somebody. But it's you can't just coach somebody forever, okay, and hope that, you know, their the performance will improve. At some point you need a really direct conversation. and you know, and th that that is is a critical point to identify.

Steve Vaughan (22:11)
Right.

Jonathan (22:24)
⁓ it's easy to put it off. I have done. You know, I'll hold my hand up at the second. I think we probably all have. You're right, Steve. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Vaughan (22:24)
Yeah.

I'm sure we all have. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's not a universal panacea Pascal coaching.

Pascal (22:35)
It's not,

it's definitely not b because ⁓ especially when when you you want to address poor performance and you have the evidence that the the the the salesperson is not following you know what could help him to be successful and is not willing also to do a number of things, you have to come to this crucial conversation and and and be very direct, setting expectations about what you expect from this person to do.

Jonathan (22:50)
Yeah.

Pascal (23:04)
While, as Jonathan said, still proposing your support, okay? Because that's important that you expect something, but he should see that you are still around. But you know, it's a combination of questioning, but also telling people this you are allowed to, this you you are no more allowed to.

Steve Vaughan (23:11)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Hmm.

Allow to strong word. What do mean by allowed? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Got you. Yeah. Okay. Got you. Got you. Okay. So let's put this all together then. Cause this episode was called the sales manager's playbook. So, you know, how do we put this in practice? You're a sales manager, you're managing a team of I don't know, eight or 10 people, you know, you've got all the day to day pressures, forecasting, ⁓

Pascal (23:27)
A lot allowed to do, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan (23:47)
Yep. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (23:49)
know, managing your manager. That's a whole nother podcast for another day, I'm sure. All of that stuff. How do you put this all together and practice,

Jonathan (23:57)
I think I mean one one key tip that I would give here would be remember there's two types of coaching, right? There's the plan coaching that you know should be you know in a in a c in calendars booked with you know you should have at least one coaching session booked with a member of your team. It's planned, it's very deliberate in the way we we go about it, it will target a sp almost certainly focus on a specific skill or capability required.

that you know you've you've ⁓ either you know have said to the salesperson you want to work on with them or you've asked for their feedback etc or you've had a joint conversation of course. ⁓ but the other piece is the spontaneous coaching. And and I just think there's endless possibilities here. I mean these are generally quite short sessions, three, four, five minutes, maybe a little longer. fantastic at ⁓ you know build building ha building habits particularly. Okay. But the spontaneous coaching you can do

Steve Vaughan (24:36)
Right.

Jonathan (24:52)
You know, and I I always I think one of the best op is one of the best opportunities is when the salesperson rings in and says, I'm really struggling with this deal, or I'm really struggling to have the right conversation here, or I've I'm facing an objection, just don't know how to handle it. Right? Those are ideal coaching opportunities. Be you could just say, This is what I would do or you could decide Yes. Yeah, correct. Correct.

Steve Vaughan (25:14)
And guess that's the trap you can fall into when you're under pressure. You've got the phone call, you you're working through a million

things. You're nodding Pascal. Yeah. Is this something that rings true for you? I don't mean you did this, but I'm thinking it's something you can relate to.

Pascal (25:26)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, one of the traps is is ⁓ to get the day to day reality, you know, just pushing you to stop the coaching and moving to the telling, you know, approach. And and and and this is where you need to be careful. And I I like a lot what Jonathan mentioned because there are at le at least two ways, you know, the plan and scheduled coaching sessions. and and the other one that you as a manager you have to be available for you people. You define time when you can, but ⁓ around the coffee

Steve Vaughan (25:47)
Yeah.

Pascal (25:55)
whatever after a visit or during a phone call, then be ready to move to the coaching mode when appropriate, but making sure that you have the time to do this. So and and what and back to what Jonathan said, active listening is key. So you cannot pretend to coach someone if you read your emails at the same time or if you check your phone.

Jonathan (26:15)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Pascal (26:18)
And I I saw this, you know, so so

Steve Vaughan (26:18)
So true. We're laughing, but it's so true.

Pascal (26:20)
yeah, and and many of us we we we saw this. So what could you think about a manager, you know, who is not looking at you and just checking his emails while he say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I listened to you.

Jonathan (26:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (26:32)
No,

no you won't. Yeah, that's another topic we're going to explore in the near future, by the way, active listening.

Jonathan (26:35)
Yeah. And and I think I

I think I go back to something Pascal said earlier as well. I think for me that you know you don't ha you don't have to do all of the coaching. You know, you may have somebody else in your team who, you know, is potentially really interested in becoming a manager in the future, or they could just be a really experienced person that likes to contribute to the overall success of the team and actually enjoys you know, taking on some coaching responsibility.

Steve Vaughan (27:03)
highly motivational for him couldn't it really yeah yeah yeah yeah

Jonathan (27:04)
So well, exactly. That's right. Yeah, exactly.

And I've I've seen so many examples of that over the years. ⁓ and that that peer to peer coaching, that for me is incredibly powerful. That starts to build a culture. ⁓ and I know we're in danger now, or I am, at least of launching straight into everything about why coaching's so important and it should be the number one tool in your bag, ⁓ as a manager, which it should be by the way. but ⁓ yeah, in terms of, you know, putting it into practice, I think

Steve Vaughan (27:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

should.

Jonathan (27:32)
You know, that is that that's another good one for me. Okay. It doesn't have to just be you. Okay. And and if you're not coaching every day, I would challenge you and ask, are you really doing your job? It could just just be in a two or three minute coaching set call, right? Conversation with one of your team. But we have so many opportunities when we can coach. And and just helping you know just just working on you know really being conscious of what you're doing and crossing that line, you know, to be

to to start spending more of your time coaching has a profound effect on your results ultimately. It really does.

Steve Vaughan (28:04)
Yeah. And if

you're listening to this, they're listening and you're, know, you're screaming down the, the, at your phone or whatever device you're listening to us on saying, don't have the time. don't have the time to do all this stuff. You know, I think as we've said already, it's time well spent really, because it's, you know, the danger is we spend all our time managing spreadsheets, managing stuff, moving stuff around, you know, feeding the workflows and the machines. You know, we've all been there, I'm sure, you know, on this call. But if you do take the time,

Jonathan (28:10)
Ha.

Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (28:33)
to coach properly, it's amazing how much more time you will get as a manager with your team. I think that's a key takeaway from me. Let me ask both of you what your takeaway will be for anybody else, anybody listening to this call, one final sort of suggestion or one final thought for you for managers listening to this thinking, I'd like to do more of this. What would you say, Pascal?

Jonathan (28:37)
Yeah, you you will. You will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pascal (28:54)
probably asking yourself as a manager, you know, how much time do I I spend coaching my my people, you know? So if I look at my agenda, how much is planned and how much do I spend, you know.

Jonathan (29:02)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (29:02)
Yeah.

Be really honest with yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Coaching is a big rock. There's a mixing our training content here, but it is. Yeah. Yeah. And one from you, Jonathan.

Jonathan (29:10)
Yep. Yeah.

⁓ I think I w I'm interesting one this for me. I don't do this very often at the end of a podcast. I'm gonna recommend you read a book. There's a fantastic book. ⁓ I've worn out several editions of this book, 'cause I've read it and read it and read it. Look, it is an easy read. If I can read it, there's no there's no everyone else should be able to read it, okay? 'Cause I don't naturally kind of read stuff, okay? I have to discipline myself to read.

Steve Vaughan (29:26)
That's a great idea.

I know what you mean, yeah.

Jonathan (29:46)
So there's a great book called Growing Human Potential by a guy called John Whitmore about coaching. It talks about called you know growing human potential. It talks about the use of the Grow model. you know, a long flight, you could you know you could read a fairly significant part of that book. Okay. And it is it is just it's an easy read, and it's just it's just superb in helping you understand the real power of being able to coach.

And there are some real there's some really intr there's some really interesting the stuff in there. Some really thought provoking questions as well. Particularly around, you know, and I'll just give you one example of, you know, do you need to be a domain expert to be able to coach somebody effectively? There's a great question, Could I probably have the whole podcast on that one, okay? ⁓ what a fantastic question. And actually the answer to that is no, you don't. All right? No, you don't.

Steve Vaughan (30:32)
That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, both

of you operators coaches for people in, you know, as customers in our space and you coach people in a variety of industries and backgrounds and you can't be expert in all of those, can you? So, no.

Jonathan (30:51)
No, no, so so

I so I think that would be one thing. I think the other thing that just goes along with that, so I'm gonna steal two here, Steve, would be you know being directive, you know, ha adopting that directing style as we've discussed has got a s a really important part to play. And I think the other thing I would recommend anyone does listening to this is go and learn about if you haven't done so already, go and learn about situational leadership.

Steve Vaughan (30:58)
You are.

Jonathan (31:15)
Don't make the classic mistake of thinking of ignoring the word situational, right? The leadership style we adopt is purely situational dependent. It's dependent on the task or activity that actually the person is just about to or is going to undertake. ⁓ it isn't just, well, you know, I'm I'm directed because they're a beginner. Hey, they may be fantastic at the at using social media and AI, right? You can just delegate a a specific task to them in in in that instance.

Steve Vaughan (31:19)
That's a great point, yeah.

Absolutely.

That's just a great

example Jonathan, thank you.

Jonathan (31:45)
you know, handling tough objections,

you may need to be directive. So right. So and everything in between, which includes coaching.

Steve Vaughan (31:51)
Yeah.

Great points both of you. We do cover course situations and leadership in depth on our sales management and leadership development training courses. I should get that plug in there before we go any further. Thank you both. Enjoy the weekend coming up. I am off on a golf trip. if you are anywhere in the Gloucester vicinity, dear Lister, I apologise if you hear the swearing in the background. My competitiveness is way above my ability in most sports. So there we go.

Jonathan (32:07)
yes, of course you are, aren't you? Yes. I'm not gonna hack Stephen, yes.

Pascal (32:08)
huh.

Jonathan (32:15)
Yeah.

Steve Vaughan (32:19)
If you have enjoyed this podcast dear listener, then don't forget to give us a review, ideally a five-star review on Apple or Spotify. would appreciate it. It does help us in lots of weird and wonderful ways. If you're interested in coming on the podcast as a guest panelist, then we'd love to hear from you as well. We've had a number of people actively working in the industry, shall we say, come on the pod in recent times. And it's always fascinating to get a fresh perspective. We absolutely don't have all the answers here in the team. It's great to have somebody else join us.

If you're interested in coming on and you work in our core markets of lab, life science, precision, process instruments, kind of things, then yeah, we'd love to hear from you. You can contact me or any members of the team through our emails, if you got them through our LinkedIn's, or there is an email address, which is podcast at georgejames-training.com. We'll be back again in a couple of weeks with another episode of The Luxury Choice. Until then, happy selling and we will talk to you soon.

Jonathan (33:03)
⁓